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lonewolf5347
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Posted: July 09 2006 at 7:56am | IP Logged Quote lonewolf5347

I use IMR 3031 in my 45-70 with a soft cast .460 405 FP
bullet with a BHN of 10: My charge of 3031 runs between 34 @ 35.5 no fillers bullets drop right in on target at the 100 yard.I was wondering how IMR 4198 or even 4064 would work in the 45-70: I found the 3031 is real dirty but cleans right up easy also find a few grains of unburn powder down the barrel. I tried a little more crimp on the case also went to a mag: primer but still seem to have unburn powder in the barrel.
The gun is a Buffalo Classic which seems to shoot better with the more lead that goes down the barrel.
I first started with 405 FP in .458 they shot O.K. then bump up to .459 thay shot a little better ,seem .460 shoot the best so far.
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stuffit
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Posted: July 09 2006 at 8:30am | IP Logged Quote stuffit

Your observation on bullet size pretty well parallels most folks' experience with the BC. From what I read, 4198 does very well in it and I'd expect 4064 to do so as well. I've found 3031 to be a good powder too, though, as with lots of factors, I know experience can vary. With plain based cast bullets, keep you mvl < 1650 and your bullet size at .459 to .461 and your loads should be very accurate in your BC. You can get good accuracy with GC bullets and jacketed at higher velocities if your body is up to the increasing recoil. Don't overlook Rx7 for a broad spectrum of velocity levels. It's very versatile. 5744, though not a clean burner gives excellent accuracy in "traditional" level loads in this caliber.

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Ranch 13
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Posted: July 09 2006 at 10:06am | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

4064 is a bit slow for the 45-70, I think 3031 is probably the best 45-70 choice in the IMR line. I've used 4198 and sr 4759, but when limited to IMR powder would stick with 3031, or maybe 4895.
If you get out of the IMR line then AA 5744 is darned hard to beat if you're not going to shoot blackpowder.

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stuffit
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Posted: July 09 2006 at 11:03am | IP Logged Quote stuffit

lonewolf5347,

You won't ever go wrong by paying careful attention to Ranche's input on the 45-70 in regard to powders and other factors as well. The voice of experience for sure.

stuffit

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Littlejack
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Posted: July 09 2006 at 3:01pm | IP Logged Quote Littlejack


LW:
I tried IMR 3031 also. As with you, it was very dirty in my BC. I like the results of the 4198 or the Re7 powders. They are quite close to each other in the burn rate charts. Both are short extruded flow well in my powder measure and are two of the cleanest of the powders that I have tried. I load a Lyman 535 grain Postell PB. I use 30 grains of Re7 for a Chrony'd 1352 average fps. Hope this helps.
                                  Jack


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Ranch 13
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Posted: July 09 2006 at 3:05pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Stuffit thanks for the kind words, a bit overblown maybe.
Lonewolf I don't think there's anybody hanging around this forum that has more experience and knowhow when it comes any of the HR versions of 45-70 than Stuffit, but he's probably to humble to admit to any such.

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lonewolf5347
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Posted: July 09 2006 at 5:33pm | IP Logged Quote lonewolf5347

RANCH: I was thinking in 4064 is a bit slower than 3031 and since the pressures build a bit slower, it tends to be gentler to the base structure of the soft plain base boolit. The reduction in base deformation directly translates into better accuracy, since the base is the most important part of the boolit in that regards.
The 405 FP bullets are cast 20:1 and would say it has a BHN of 10.
I did try the other day some black powder loads with the same bullet 65 and 70 grains of goex ,seem I loaded a little to strong. them boolets were all over the place ,would think a deformed base or gas blow -by buy a too hot charge.I switch back to smokeless to see if it was me or the loads
I would like to keep FPS around 1350
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Kragman71
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Posted: July 09 2006 at 6:18pm | IP Logged Quote Kragman71

Wolf
IMR 3031 is a good choice for full house loads in a modern rifle.But lesser loads (for me)always are dirty or leave unburned powder in the bore or action.
It is a little slow burning for my Trapdoors.
I agree wih Jack;4198 is good,and Reloader 7 is better.
Frank
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Littlejack
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Posted: July 09 2006 at 6:59pm | IP Logged Quote Littlejack

LW:
FYI
The velocity you have decided on (1350fps) is the max that my BC will shoot with good accuracy. I ask a lot of questions on this forum when I got started with picking a powder and a bullet in my BC. These fella's gave me the correct skinny everytime. Silly me wanted to shoot them real fast. BAD IDEA. I was warned by some of these well seasoned 45-70 shooters. The BC is out right brutal with heavy loads, even with the 405 grainer. It wasn't that I disbelieved them, I just wanted to see how much recoil there was. There was a LOT. I KNOW YOU GUYS ARE LAUGHING YOUR A$$E$ OFF AT ME ABOUT NOW.
The 4198 or Re7 will shoot your 1350 fps loads with ease. Do it with less powder than the 3031, 4064 and 4895. They will also do it very cleanly down the bore.
I can't say whether the bullet gets deformed to the point of bad accuracy, but I do know that the rifling in the BC bore is very shallow and the bullet will strip when loaded too fast.
The 1352 fps in my rifle with the 535 grain bullet is comfortable for me to shoot. If I could load it faster and still get the accuracy, I would not. Too much recoil.
                                   Jack   




Edited by Littlejack on July 09 2006 at 7:00pm


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Posted: July 09 2006 at 8:42pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Lonewolf there's acouple of things with your bp load that could of been giving problems, first is the lube, if it wasn't a bees wax or bayberry wax based lube it's not real likely to work well with bp.
Second was as you mention possible base distortion, simple to fix with an over powder card, as simple as a peice of newspaper , waxpaper, or milk carton (cardboard not plastic), or one of the store bot ones, I prefer the .030 thickness.
Third is bullet size , usually (but notalways)if your bullet isn't .002 over groove its' not going to work well with bp.

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lonewolf5347
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Posted: July 10 2006 at 3:54am | IP Logged Quote lonewolf5347

Ranch : I did the card wad over the powder (milk container) and the beeswax and lard mix 60/40 ,just think I sould of started at 60 grains of BP.
Ranch: would have any loaded data with the IMR 4198 and do you need to use a filler with this powder?
no loads over 1400 fps
would appreciate it
LITTLE JACK" I tried some 500 grainers 2 weeks ago with 70 grains of BP: They shot excellent but the Handi B.C. is too light of a rifle to handle that recoil,would have ben O.K. in my younger days but these old bones are not what they use to be.
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Ranch 13
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Posted: July 10 2006 at 7:00am | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

I don't have any data for 4198 other than what Hogdons lists in their manual, while it worked ok for me, it didn't measure up to 5744. I don't use fillers with smokeless powders. The reason being I feel the filler can cause the bullet to become a temporary bore obstruction and cause chamber ringing .
For bp loads start by figuring the seating depth of the bullet, then fill the case with powder to just about 1/16th inch past where the base of the bullet/wad will sit, then seat your bullet with only enough crimp to correct the flare in the case mouth.

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lonewolf5347
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Posted: July 10 2006 at 7:36am | IP Logged Quote lonewolf5347

Ranch 13: I think I will try your way in loading BP
I dump the charge and compress the load with a die plug,I also thought maybe too much powder compression: Filling the case with 70 grains needs a lot of crushing to seat the bullet and wad.
I may just stick with the 3031 for now,hate to buy a pound of the stuff and not use it.I also load 3031 in my 06 so th stuff is always used.
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Posted: July 10 2006 at 7:53am | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

If you use a drop tube you can elimate alot of the compression stuff. I've found that seating just short of the lands works better with bp.
3031 is a good powder, I've just got away from using it much anymore as I've found some that work better in specific applications.

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stuffit
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Posted: July 10 2006 at 8:26am | IP Logged Quote stuffit

If you decide to try some more smokeless powders in your rifle, in my Buffalo Classic, 5744 has done very well for duplication of classic loads in 45-70. Reloader 7 has been, for me, the most versatile smokeless powder giving good accuracy with a variety of bullet weights and charges. I've restocked and revised my BC and recoil is not the issue with it that it once was, but still keep my loads on the conservative side. If you want velocities over 1400fps, then GC bullets may be a good option for you. I shoot two NEI GCd cast bullets in 365gr and 430 gr and both show superior accuracy over a wide range of charges with Rx7 starting with 30 grs.
It's a clean burner in my rifle too. My favorite smokeless powder for this caliber/rifle combination.

stuffit

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Leftoverdj
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Posted: July 10 2006 at 6:59pm | IP Logged Quote Leftoverdj

30-31 grains of IMR 4198 will be right up there with the best of 405 grain bullet loads in the .45-70 in NEF barrels for accuracy. It's also cleaner burning, but the velocity will be a bit lower.

My barrels seem to be very pressure sensitive with plain base bullets. Past a certain point, I get sharp dropoffs in accuracy. The faster the powder, the lower the velocity at which accuracy deteriorates sharply.
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stuffit
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Posted: July 10 2006 at 7:30pm | IP Logged Quote stuffit

Leftoverdj,
What you've just said is pretty much what you shared with me back when I was trying to make some sense out of the "accuracy deteriorates sharply" phenomenon, and certainly true. I notice on the burn rate chart I have that Rx7 and 4198 are immediately adjacent to one another so I expect we're talking six of one and half a dozen of another when comparing how they perform in the .45-70. As best I recall, the 4198 load you mention is drinks' favorite too for his 45-70 Handi.

stuffit

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drinks
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Posted: July 10 2006 at 7:58pm | IP Logged Quote drinks

I have no idea what happened, but a post I made this morning has disappeared.
I posted the following.
With the 500gr 3R Lee, I used IMR 4198 as follows;
25gr, 1170fps, 30gr, 1380fps and 35gr, 1610fps.
The last was my personal limit for recoil.
IMR 4895, 39gr, 1430fps and a very nice shooting load.
H 4831, 39gr, 990fps, a lot of unburned powder.
IMR 4064, 34gr, 1150fps, pleasant and accurate, but not very efficient, quite a bit of unburned powder.
I have found Rel7 and IMR 4198 to be the most efficient and reliable powders in MY rifle with 320, 405 and 500gr bullets.
WC820/AA #9 is showing promise in 20-25 gr loads with the 405gr HB bullet at 1150-1350fps.
I have not tried it with the 500gr 3R, that may well be my next adventure.

Edited by drinks on July 10 2006 at 8:11pm
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lonewolf5347
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 11:41am | IP Logged Quote lonewolf5347

Ranch: can you compress BP too much??
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Ranch 13
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 2:03pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

It's my opinion that any more compression than just enough to remove any air space is too much compression.
The reloading manuals from days long gone recommended the bullet be in "firm" contact with the powder, to do anymore than that would break the powder into finer granulation and change the burn rate.
I think alot of the high compression rates comes from confusion with pyrodex, which need the crap mashed out of it to work well in cartridges.

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