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Subject Topic: Range Report - 309, 30-30 and 47-70 Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Rigmarol
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Posted: August 11 2006 at 6:32pm | IP Logged Quote Rigmarol

I'm just starting off with cast rifle bullets so I'm all excited. You can pass on this topic if you want it's new to me but probably old hat for most of you.

I'm using RCBS 180gn GC bullet for 30cal and Lee .405 HB for the Sharps.

My load data doesn't list 180gn so I had to load down from the 200gn listing. The bullet weighs in at about 190grns or so after GC and lube.

Which brings up the question: Do you use the actual finished dressed bullet in your load data or your "as cast" weight for your load data? I'm using my fully dressed bullet weight averaged dued to different weights caused by lube and GC.

Anyway, I loaded up rifle rounds for 3 rifles.
.308
.30-30
and 45-70

The 30 cals were the same bullet as listed above the RCBS 180gn GC.

The 45-70 was the 405gn HB

I shot 20 rounds each over the Chony with the following results:

.308
180gn over 38.0gn Varget
Hi=2373, Hi=2385
Lo=2322, Lo=2329
AU=2348, Au=2364
ES=51.47, ES=56.45
SD=18.05, SD= 17.63

Accuracy through the scope at 50yards was fair. Every shot was within 6" and it was windy. But I think I can do better.


30-30
180gn over 25gn Varget
Hi=1749, Hi=1717
Lo=1611, Lo=1650
Au=1666, Au=1679
ES=137.4, ES=67.43
SD=36.49, SD=21.70

Shooting at 50yards with open sites I was very pleased with 6" total grouping of all 20 shots. Although I'm sure I can do better.


Lastly, I tried something new with the sharps 45-70.

Last time I sized and lubed them and had what I considered terrible accuracy. It was suggested that I was sizing them too small and although my stats were good, maybe leaving them "as cast" would improve my accuracy.

I shot 10 sized to 405 and felix lubed
I then shot 10 left at 408 as cast, Tumble lubed with LLA
(BTW slugged comes out right at 405)

Sized:   Not Sized:
Hi=2028, Hi= 2060
Lo=1990, Lo=2023
Au=2002, Au=2085
Es=37.69, Eu=37.50
Sd=11.61, Sd=11.57

Accuracy with open sights actually was better slightly with the sized rounds than the unsized rounds. But not especially better.

I kept all shots within 8" at 50yards which in my opinion for this rifle is poor markmanship on my part.

Comments and suggestions are always welcome.



Edited by Rigmarol on August 11 2006 at 6:34pm


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Paul5388
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Posted: August 11 2006 at 7:30pm | IP Logged Quote Paul5388

Just a couple of observations Rig. The larger bullets (I'm pretty sure you meant .455" and .458") indicate the need for the larger bullet, since the seal is better and they developed more velocity. Accuracy was probably pretty good due to the Sharps having deep groove rifling that even engraved the small bullet.

Cast accuracy, in my experience, has been better at velocities of 1600 fps or slower. That .45-70 HB especially needs to be slower.
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drinks
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Posted: August 12 2006 at 7:58am | IP Logged Quote drinks

Rig;
Several of us shoot the 405HB, we all get 1 1/2" or so at 50 yds when the velocity is 1100 to 1300fps.
I just use wws, air cooled and do fine. When I ran the bullet at 1650fps, the group went to 4-5".
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Rigmarol
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Posted: August 12 2006 at 9:28am | IP Logged Quote Rigmarol

Then a reducing I will go sirs!! Thanks.

My shoulder will be thrilled I'm sure!!

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Paul5388
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Posted: August 12 2006 at 10:41am | IP Logged Quote Paul5388

Rig,

I use 12.0 gr of Green Dot, but the same load of Unique or Universal will do about the same 1000 fps and it sure is easy on the shoulder shooting. Whatever you do, don't listen to BigBlue about it bouncing three times getting to 100 yards!
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Buffalogun
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Posted: August 12 2006 at 6:25pm | IP Logged Quote Buffalogun

Rig,

Here is a tip:

What we are doing is trying to obtain favorable results using smokeless powder in a rifle which was built for and made it's mark during blackpowder times.

The reason the Lee 405HB has that big hole in the bottom is to allow the sudden "explosion" of the "blackpowder" charge to swell the skirt so that it engages the rifling and creates a good gas seal.

Since you aren't using BP, you need to use a smokeless load that will swell the skirt of the 405HB, yet not create too much pressure.

If you noticed, the powders Paul listed are "fast" powders. If you look at a powder burn-rate chart you will see there is a rather large distance between Paul's powders and your Varget. Myself, I use SR4759 and a charge of 25.6g sends the Lee 405HB out of the barrel of my Sharps at around 1,550 fps.

It also shoots like Don described, from my Sharps!

Don't forget, you are shooting a rifle from the 1870's and you "MUST" try to immitate the technology of that time period.

(If you want to shoot fast, you have to go to a gas-checked bullet, like Don shoots!)


Mike








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Rigmarol
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Posted: August 12 2006 at 6:42pm | IP Logged Quote Rigmarol

I used Varget only because I had it on hand and found one reference to a larger buller (200gn) and loaded down from that a bit.

I picked up some other powders yesterday, they didn't have my first choices but the did have my second choices.

IMR 3031
IMR 4350

I've never used them before, how do you think they'll do in the 45-70?

I eventually want to try BP But right now I'm focusing on smokeless because of the other calibers I'm reloading for. As time goes by I'll settle on some standards I'm sure.

I have Unique but couldn't find load data for it at the time. I'll have try it too.

Thanks guys, keep the suggestions and pointers coming, I'm really injoying my Sharps, right now it's my favorite.


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Buffalogun
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Posted: August 12 2006 at 7:01pm | IP Logged Quote Buffalogun

Rig,

IMR3031 might work, although I use it with jacketed bullets. IMR4350 is too slow!

You want to use a small charge of a fast powder which gives the bullet a sudden "boot", in order to swell the bullet skirt.

Although your Sharps has a long barrel, you need to forget slow powders. Your main concern is to cause the base of the 405HB to "upset".


Mike    

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Ranch 13
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Posted: August 12 2006 at 8:54pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

You might have trouble acheiving top accuracy with that 405 gr bullet in that 1-18 twist your rifle has. Heavier bullets will likely work better.
Try 39 gr of the 3031 with that bullet unsized and see what happens. At 100 yds you should be shooting clover leafs with that rifle.
3032 will likely proove much better in your 30's than the varget.


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Rigmarol
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Posted: August 12 2006 at 10:05pm | IP Logged Quote Rigmarol

I'm not shying away from a challenge with this 405gn HB bullet, but if you think I'll have better luck with a different bullet then I'm open for any suggestions. A Lee mold costs less than a lb of pounder.

The 3031 was for the 30 cals, I just didn't say so, sorry.



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Ranch 13
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Posted: August 12 2006 at 10:15pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

The lee 500 3R shoots quite well for me, it does sometimes have a tendency to keyhole past 800 yds. (Haven't figured that one out yet.)
3031 should work pretty well for cast in all three of your rifles.
The biggest thing to remember with cast bullets is that most of the time best accuracy comes with the bullets sized .002 over groove. Ie if your 308 slugs at 308 then a 310cast bullet is going to give you less fits.
If your 30-30 is a Marlin with the microgroove barrel it may or may not ever shoot cast well. They are somewhat finciky about cast bullets.

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Rigmarol
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Posted: August 12 2006 at 10:40pm | IP Logged Quote Rigmarol

The 30-30 is a Winchester pre '69 with no microgrooves.

I'll put the lee 500 3R on my wish list.

Thanks.

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USA Joe
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 12:12am | IP Logged Quote USA Joe

Hi Rigmarol: I use the mold makers weight RCBS 180-sp
GC is 180. 30 to 1 might be 210 & cast from Monotype 165. Dosen't matter, as long as you shoot the heaver one! your casting techique and pot temp. cause some difference in cast weight. I have used ole herucles 2400
to great sucess in cast for rifles, cuts leading. Now I
have changed to AA 5744 for all cast rifle loads. In 30-30 with 3031 IMR powder, have been not as good. 10 shots at 100yrs 5 to 7 inches lyman 311291/311041 RCBS
180 Fp GC! Same case primer and 2400 2inches per 10 shots discounting the wild fliers that open up to 4inches. Might be the gas check falling off as Paul B has mentioned in other posts! My sharps 45/120 likes 550
gr Postil type, not GC.and cast soft30to 35 to 1 when I do my part I get 3 shots that make one hole at 100yd after that I am flinching, using 405 Gr HB. I have had to pay for target stand damage, One dollar per hole in target holder My 458 win mag shoots lee 500 r in to one hole when cast from Lino type and a good charge of R-7 6 shots is my best, then pain over comes pleasure! I have a habbit of running high tin/ Pretty bullets have to shoot better? Don't you think! And the heaver ones. I have had really good results with bulk 4831 in the past. With 30-30 but was very dirty> Remember some rifles will not shoot cast bullet worth spit, if the barrel has a tight spot near the chamber by

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Rigmarol
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 7:28am | IP Logged Quote Rigmarol

Thanks Joe! great info and it's all going to be used in one way or another. This is such a great place.

Ok, I'm getting ready to go shooting now, have to meet up with CBRICK and empty some of these nasty loads so I can make up some good ones!!

Thanks again.

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drinks
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 7:55am | IP Logged Quote drinks

Rig;
All this is for .45-70, modern made.
I try most anything,205gr pb with WC820, 23gr.
220 pb 4227, 25gr,1350fps, Herco, 12gr,1220fps.
320gr gc, 4198, 25 to 35gr,1300 to 1600fps, Rel7, 35 to 45gr,1400 to 1760fps, the 45gr load shot in 1" at 50 yds, WC 680, 40gr with a full dacron wad,1900fps, WC 844, 55 to 64 gr,1850 to 2100fps, 55 and 60 with dacron wads WC 820, 30gr, no wad, 1680fps.
405 gc, 4198, 25 to 35 gr, WC 680, 35gr with full dacron wad, 1200 to 1600fps.
405 HB, 4198, 24 to 30 gr, WC 820, 23 to 25 gr is best, 1300-1350fps, WC 680, 35gr, 1600fps, but 4" or more at 50 yds.
500gr 3R, both as pb and cut for a gas check.
4064, 35gr, 1200fps, pb, accurate, 4895, 40 gr, 1450fps with gc, accurate, 4198, 25gr, 1200fps up to 36gr, 1650fps, accurate but very much all I want to shoot and then some. 31gr gets 1400fps and is pleasant to shoot.
I am using a Handirifle with a 22" barrel,so the slower powders should give you a bit more velocity.
I would , if I had to use only one powder in .45-70, use either 4198 or Rel7, I have good results from 300 to 500gr bullets with both.

Edited by drinks on August 13 2006 at 8:03am
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