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MattC
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Posted: March 09 2004 at 10:01am | IP Logged Quote MattC

Just looked over at Buffalo Bores website and saw that they now have a 158gr .38 +P load that does 1000 fps from a 2 in barrel. Probably the same powder that they use in the .357 mag. Soooo....

Could we pool our collective minds and come up with a .38 +P load using Lil'Gun? If the 158gr/18gr Lil'Gun .357 load is 26,000 CUP, it wouldn't be a far drop to 19,000 CUP in the .38 special, would it? Maybe 13gr Lil'Gun? Just threw that out there for discussion, I have no idea of a starting load for this. Whadya think?
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Ranch 13
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Posted: March 09 2004 at 10:07am | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

take a fired case, fill it with the powder until the bullet just touches the powder, weigh the charge, and THEN THINK long and hard if you want to run that load thru your gun.

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JohnK
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Posted: March 09 2004 at 10:13am | IP Logged Quote JohnK

I think you'd have to go lower than that to keep it within the 38 Special +P pressure range Matt. Probably more in the 9.0 - 10.0 range with 158gr bullets to be around 1,000 fps.

I think it might be interesting to experiment with, but that in the end the faster powders would still end up being better (more accurate, less flash etc) for 38 Special level loads.

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MattC
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Posted: March 09 2004 at 11:16am | IP Logged Quote MattC

Ranch13,

I don't quite understand your logic. I don't know of any pistol cartridge where I load any powder to the base of the bullet. Are you saying that 13gr would fill the case?

John,

I'm not necessarily looking for a certain velocity, but wouldn't it make sense that you could get more velocity at the Plus P pressure level using Lil'gun? As for muzzle flash and accuracy, yes the muzzle flash will probably be greater, but who cares? I'll withhold any comment on accuracy, but I will say that I don't think one can say it will be better or worse at this point.

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MattC
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Posted: March 09 2004 at 11:27am | IP Logged Quote MattC

If you take a look at Hodgdons data. With the same powders from the .357 and the .38 they dropped the .38 charge to about 69% of the .357. The pressure dropped from roughly 40,000 CUP to 18,000 CUP. 69% of the Lil'Gun load is 12.4gr, but this powder is not working at 40,000 CUP in the .357.

158 GR. HDY XTP .357
COL: 1.580"

Powder gr. vel pressure
H4227 16.0 1520 42,600 CUP
H110 16.7 1591 40,700 CUP
LIL'GUN 18.0 1577 25,800 CUP
HS-6 9.5 1375 41,900 CUP
UNIVERSAL 6.3 1133 39,300 CUP
HP-38 6.9 1220 40,000 CUP
TITEGROUP 6.1 1229 41,900 CUP

158 GR. HDY XTP .38 sp
COL: 1.455"

Powder gr. vel pressure
H4227 11.0 964 17,600 CUP
HS-6 6.6 926 18,700 CUP
UNIVERSAL 4.7 837 19,200 CUP
HP-38 4.6 807 18,100 CUP
TITEGROUP 4.3 905 19,300 CUP

Can someone point out the fault in my logic? The only thing I can think of is that Lil'Gun might not work well at a lower pressure level?


Edited by MattC on March 09 2004 at 11:28am
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Ranch 13
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Posted: March 09 2004 at 12:09pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Matt my logic is this. When working with h110,296, and lilgun, all three work best with 95% or more load density. I determine load density by how much powder the case will hold with out compressing the charge. In the experiment I ran on lilgun and the 357 the other day 18 grs filled the case to the base of the bullet and what I'ld consider to be 100% load density.
True most handgun powders filled to the base of the bullet would be disasaterous, but as we're talking here of lilgun this is how I would figure out how much would fit in the case. But when working with these slow powders working under the recommended load density can do some strange things as well.

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MattC
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Posted: March 09 2004 at 2:00pm | IP Logged Quote MattC

Ranch13,

I know H110/296 work their best at close to full load density. I didn't know that Lil'Gun required the same treatment. I'm contacting Hodgdon to find out what they recomend for a starting load in the .357, or how much you can safely reduce Lil'Gun.
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Ranch 13
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Posted: March 09 2004 at 2:54pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

When I contacted them they said it can be just about as finicky about load density as 110. I was curiuos if it would make a good cast rifle powder, no was basically the answer, but it will be interesting to see what they tell you.
I did check a western 38 special case with a 158 gr bevelbase cast swc. this afternoon.13.5 grs would be within 90% load density. If you try it I would do it in a 357 gun. and keep a close watch on the chronograph.

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blackhawk44
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Posted: March 09 2004 at 4:23pm | IP Logged Quote blackhawk44

The problem sould be that you would be trying to use Lilgun outside its working pressure range. From most date it appears that Lilgun likes 25-40,000psi. 25,000psi is over 38+P range. Working below its effective range will give very wide variations and possible bloopers. It may not be possible to get Lilgun up into an efficient burning range without going way over pressure for 38+Ps. I'd check with Hodgdon first.
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NVcaster
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Posted: March 09 2004 at 7:35pm | IP Logged Quote NVcaster

Ranch 13 wrote:
Matt my logic is this. When working with h110,296, and lilgun, all three work best with 95% or more load density. I determine load density by how much powder the case will hold with out compressing the charge. In the experiment I ran on lilgun and the 357 the other day 18 grs filled the case to the base of the bullet and what I'ld consider to be 100% load density.
True most handgun powders filled to the base of the bullet would be disasaterous, but as we're talking here of lilgun this is how I would figure out how much would fit in the case. But when working with these slow powders working under the recommended load density can do some strange things as well.


My experience agrees with having a nearly full case (or slightly compressed) with these 3 powders to achieve desired performance. Note that they also work well in 410 shotgun which almost always compresses the powder. I run these powders full bore (case?) and switch to 2400 for "lighter" loads. I use bullseye for Light loads. I think if I wanted +p from a 38 I would try 2400. However I do like little gun and am curious how Matts experiment works out.

I would like to add I use Lil gun, H110 and 296 in magnum cases only!

Edited by NVcaster on March 09 2004 at 7:39pm
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Posted: March 09 2004 at 7:48pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

I'm curious to see what Hogdons tells him.
I have been thinking of trying some in 44 special cases as well. At one time Hogdon listed a load of 14 or 15 grs in the 44 spc. I tried it but didn't get any accuracy to speak of, but that could have been as much the bullet as the powder.
I don't load any+p in the 38, as to me anyway ,its best at its lowly veloctiy for a pleasant shooting plinker.
By the way Nevada , howdy and welocome to the forum.

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JohnK
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Posted: March 09 2004 at 8:34pm | IP Logged Quote JohnK

The lightest I've gone with Lil'Gun in the 44 Special is 16.0gr under a 250gr Keith. That load did 972 fps with a SD of 7 fps and extreme spread of 17 fps in a 4" M29-2. I didn't do any accuracy testing with that load, but from just a velocity standpoint they were very consistant

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NVcaster
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Posted: March 09 2004 at 8:49pm | IP Logged Quote NVcaster

Thanks for the welcome Ranch. This website is great. I have been reading posts in the forums for a week (+/-) maybe even a month and just had to join in on the fun.
One application I like to use a +p 38 in is with a longer bullet in Ruger SP101. I have a 358429 mould that makes bullets a little long for my ruger so I load it up in a 38. I am thinking of trimming just enough off some 357 cases instead, I only need to trim about 50 thousandths. Has any body tryed this? I just might be able to use my favorite load of 17 grains Lil gun.
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Posted: March 09 2004 at 8:56pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Well JohnK sounds like me and the colt got some messing to do again. I've got some of the 429244's yet and some nice .430 240gr swc's that have been bugging me to get used up.
Nevada, Johnk has a good setup here,lots of good folks with lots of know how, and seems to be more showing up everyday. So just jump on in the waters fine.

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Black Jaque
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Posted: March 12 2004 at 1:23pm | IP Logged Quote Black Jaque

Why not Lil' Gun in a .38spl? Hodgdon lists Lil'Gun for +P .45 Colt, so why not a +P .38spl?

For the .45 Colt Lil' Gun loads - what is the load density?

I've tried 13 grains of Lil' Gun in a .357 case with a bevel-base RNFP and get great accuracy. I 'graphed it at over 1500 fps from a 24" bbl lever action. But after reading this thread - I may have to drop my favorite load.
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JohnK
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Posted: March 12 2004 at 1:36pm | IP Logged Quote JohnK

Quote:
Why not Lil' Gun in a .38spl? Hodgdon lists Lil'Gun for +P .45 Colt, so why not a +P .38spl?

+P 45 Colt = 30,000 CUP
+P 38 Special = 19,800 CUP

Lil'Gun might work in a 38 Spl load, or it might not, but just because it's used in one caliber doesn't mean it's appropriate for another.

What bullet were you using with that 13.0gr load Black Jaque? Unless it was a really heavy one it doesn't sound to high, Hodgdon lists up to 15.0gr for a 180gr Nosler, and I've loaded 17.0gr under a 173gr Keith without any problems - 1,499 fps from a 5.5" revolver.

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Black Jaque
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Posted: March 12 2004 at 1:41pm | IP Logged Quote Black Jaque

JohnK

It was a 158 grain cast bullet. I'm not worried about too high - I'm worried about too low.

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JohnK
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Posted: March 12 2004 at 1:45pm | IP Logged Quote JohnK

You've already tried it, it's proven accurate and you're getting good velocity, I wouldn't worry about it being to low. Lil'Gun doesn't seem to be nearly as tempermental about low loads as H110.

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Posted: March 12 2004 at 2:15pm | IP Logged Quote blackhawk44

JohnK-remember, Black Jacque's load is in a 357 case fired in a 357 rifle. That's not a 38 case in a pocket pistol as originally questioned. Just being careful.
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Posted: March 12 2004 at 10:03pm | IP Logged Quote NVcaster

JohnK
I have loaded the 173 gr keith in a 357 case with 17 grains of Lilgun with excellent results (Best load for cast 357mag so far). I assume you this is the same load you mentioned above. Have you tryed Lil gun with a .358 180 gr LBT. I have not got as good as accuracy as the keith and am trying to figure out which way to go.
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