Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  
Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc
(Forum Locked Forum Locked)
Cast Bullets
 Handloads.Com Forum : Cast Bullets
Subject Topic: Cast bullet for .300 Savage? Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
Dutch4122
Member


Avatar

Joined: May 31 2003
Posts: 50
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 15 2004 at 11:52am | IP Logged Quote Dutch4122

I have a mid-1950's 99R in .300 Savage that I'd like to cast for if I can find a suitable mould. I'd like a bullet in the 170-180 grain range that I can use to develop a 2000+ fps deer hunting load with. Several of the Lyman designs such as the 311414, 311291, 311041, and the 31141 have been suggested to me elsewhere and are possibilities. One other mould I have noticed that looks promising for the short-necked .300 is the RCBS 308-165-SIL. The single wide lube groove at the bottom looks promising as it appears that only the gas check will protrude into the powder space; and the lube groove could be contained in the .300 Savages short neck. It also appears that I could ignore the crimp groove and seat to a proper OAL while putting a lite crimp anywhere with my Lee Factory Crimp Die.

Anybody care to comment if I'm on the right track here or have experience with this bullet design?

Thanks,

__________________
-Matt
Mid-Michigan
Back to Top View Dutch4122's Profile Search for other posts by Dutch4122
 
aladin
Newcomer




Joined: March 23 2002
Posts: 38
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 15 2004 at 3:18pm | IP Logged Quote aladin

Couple points.

What's the groove dia of your Savage? RCBS molds run to the smaller side and with ww alloy you might not get enough dia to make the bullet shoot well. And I think the older Savage barrels run to the larger side... this from reading posts for some time.

2000 fps is likely past a point of using alloys that will be soft enough to mushroom in the classic manner-- and still grip the rifling reliably. But with the slowest powders applicable and the alloy around 15 bhn you might have a shot.

Cast bullets being shot much slower normally run right thru game. If it were me I'd find the widest meplat available and load it as fast as I could with a hard alloy or heat treated bullets. That way more energy is dumped into the animal.
Back to Top View aladin's Profile Search for other posts by aladin
 
RECURVE
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: December 23 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 355
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 15 2004 at 5:13pm | IP Logged Quote RECURVE

I have a ques for you guys in the rifle casting thing. I been shootn my 30-30win. with speer sfn bullets is it possable to cast and shoot without gas check and i tumble lube can that be done without leading. New to this rifle stuff probbly dumb question but asked any way . Just shootn for fun not huntin with it.
Back to Top View RECURVE's Profile Search for other posts by RECURVE
 
aladin
Newcomer




Joined: March 23 2002
Posts: 38
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 15 2004 at 8:08pm | IP Logged Quote aladin

It's possible but the results aren't always what you'd want. Get a Lee push thru die for adding the checks-- for around $11 and you've got something that works.

Lee makes pistol bullet molds that are plain base [PB] and 311 dia. If your looking for equipment economy these should work right otta the mold tumble lubed.


http://www.leeprecision.com/catalog/browse.cgi?1070633203.51 45=bullmol2.html
Back to Top View aladin's Profile Search for other posts by aladin
 
Dutch4122
Member


Avatar

Joined: May 31 2003
Posts: 50
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 16 2004 at 5:51am | IP Logged Quote Dutch4122

Aladin-

The groove diameter on my 99R is .3085" and the bore is very smooth and consistant all the way through. Hopefully the RCBS will cast a large enough slug to fit properly.

Your point is well taken on the slower speeds and softer alloys. Looks like a bit of experimentation will be in order.

Thanks,

__________________
-Matt
Mid-Michigan
Back to Top View Dutch4122's Profile Search for other posts by Dutch4122
 
Leftoverdj
Senior Member




Joined: November 18 2003
Posts: 2789
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 16 2004 at 9:37am | IP Logged Quote Leftoverdj

Recurve, I have played with this some. I have never been able to get bullets designed to take a gas check to shoot well without one and I have never been able to get the .32 pistol bullets to shoot well much past 35 yards. Lyman 311410, a 130 intended for the .30 carbine, works well as long as you keep the velocities down to 1400-1600 fps, depending on your rifle. RCBS offers a 150 grain plainbase for the CAS shooters that should work. Long ago, Alberts sold swaged .30 cal PBs of about 160 grains that worked wonderfully in everything I tried them in.

I find GCs a PITA and a needless expense for plinkers, but there ain't much in the way of suitable PB .30 cal moulds.
Back to Top View Leftoverdj's Profile Search for other posts by Leftoverdj
 
aladin
Newcomer




Joined: March 23 2002
Posts: 38
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 16 2004 at 10:12am | IP Logged Quote aladin

Leftoverdj wrote:
Recurve, I have played with this some. I have never been able to get bullets designed to take a gas check to shoot well without one and I have never been able to get the .32 pistol bullets to shoot well much past 35 yards. Lyman 311410, a 130 intended for the .30 carbine, works well as long as you keep the velocities down to 1400-1600 fps, depending on your rifle. RCBS offers a 150 grain plainbase for the CAS shooters that should work. Long ago, Alberts sold swaged .30 cal PBs of about 160 grains that worked wonderfully in everything I tried them in.

I find GCs a PITA and a needless expense for plinkers, but there ain't much in the way of suitable PB .30 cal moulds.


RCBS makes a 30 caliber PB mold, around 150 grs I think.

I've made three PB 30 caliber molds using a drill press and a 312 drill bit. I used a bit that just fit into the mold riding on the lube groove tops, centered this setup and locked it down-- and then bored out the shank. Taking care it's not really that hard.

I used a Lee 180 gr mold and a Lyman 311644. Both will beat 2" at 100 with some clusters very tight. Unique and Blue Dot for the powders.
Back to Top View aladin's Profile Search for other posts by aladin
 
RECURVE
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: December 23 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 355
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 16 2004 at 5:00pm | IP Logged Quote RECURVE

Thanks a lot. May buy the rcbs mold for CAS and give that a try. Only powder i have for it is imr4895 for 150gr. cast what would the load be for the 30-30 win keeping it in the 1400 to 1600 range? Have a HP book on cowboy loads but not IMR.
Back to Top View RECURVE's Profile Search for other posts by RECURVE
 
aladin
Newcomer




Joined: March 23 2002
Posts: 38
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 17 2004 at 3:00am | IP Logged Quote aladin

RECURVE wrote:
Thanks a lot. May buy the rcbs mold for CAS and give that a try. Only powder i have for it is imr4895 for 150gr. cast what would the load be for the 30-30 win keeping it in the 1400 to 1600 range? Have a HP book on cowboy loads but not IMR.


22-24 grs should put you in that zone Recurve. Remember PB bullets are about max'd out at 15-1600 in most barrels using standard loading techniques, so starting conservative is in order.

Do you have any shotgun powders...Unique or Blue Dot? I've had good luck with both shooten PB cast in the 06.
Back to Top View aladin's Profile Search for other posts by aladin
 
RECURVE
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: December 23 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 355
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 17 2004 at 4:43pm | IP Logged Quote RECURVE

Thanks a bunch. Yes i do have some Unique shoots great in my handguns but dont use it much because it dosent meter well in my auto disc in my turret press. Load 30-30 in single stage so that wouldnt be a problem. Really like the D. powder just wish it work in a measure. If it dont i dont trust my loads and dont want to check every rd not when i load a lot of them on turret press. Right now not planing on loading that much for the long gun so i could use it up on it. The unique i have is the new cleaner powder but from what i shot couldnt tell much dif from the old.
Back to Top View RECURVE's Profile Search for other posts by RECURVE
 
Kragman71
Member


Avatar

Joined: January 05 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 89
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 18 2004 at 9:04am | IP Logged Quote Kragman71

Dutch,
I just bought a Savage '99R,serial#7095xx,which I have been told,was made in 1953.How close to that is your #?
I'm still trying to find a really good load,but I do recommend the Lyman#311041GC bullet.It shoots well,and has a nice sized meplat,for hunting.
16 grains of IMR#4198 with .5 grain Dacron filler gives me 1 1/4 minute groups.
Frank
Back to Top View Kragman71's Profile Search for other posts by Kragman71
 
Dutch4122
Member


Avatar

Joined: May 31 2003
Posts: 50
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 18 2004 at 4:45pm | IP Logged Quote Dutch4122

Kragman-

My 99R has a serial # in the 7065XX range. I was told by the collectors at 24 hour Campfire that the serial number is not a reliable way to determine the year of manufacture as Savage serial numbers tended to jump around a lot from year to year.

They advised me that the best way to date the rifle was to look at the frame in front of the curved part where the lever attaches. There should be a small stamped circle and in the middle should be the "99" and an upper case letter. That letter denotes the year of manufacture starting with "99A" in 1949, "99B" in 1950, etc. Mine is stamped "99G" which indicates 1955 as the year of manufacture.

I'm not sure if that will agree with what you have been told but I thought I'd let you know just in case it would help.

As for bullets, I'm leaning towards that RCBS 308-165-SIL, but if it doesn't work out then I think the Lyman 311041 will be next on my list. Also, the out of production Lyman 31141 might be worth a shot if I can find the mould.

Who knows, maybe I'll end up trying them all.

__________________
-Matt
Mid-Michigan
Back to Top View Dutch4122's Profile Search for other posts by Dutch4122
 
Kragman71
Member


Avatar

Joined: January 05 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 89
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 19 2004 at 5:36am | IP Logged Quote Kragman71

Dutch,
Thanks,a lot
Your serial# is lower then mine and is (G),made in 1955.
My '99 has a circle with what appears to be Arabic writing inside.The only letter that it can possibly be is 'E'(1953),but that clashes with your serial#.
A website inquiry with my serial#,got an answer of '1951 or later'.
FWIW,I also get no accuracy with gas check bullets without the gas check on them.My 1300-1400 FPS 31141 gc loads have gas checks on them.If I can find the time,I'll follow Aladin's advice,and drill out the bullet base.I also have a newer #3110411 mold.
Frank
Back to Top View Kragman71's Profile Search for other posts by Kragman71
 
Dutch4122
Member


Avatar

Joined: May 31 2003
Posts: 50
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 19 2004 at 6:02am | IP Logged Quote Dutch4122

Kragman-

I was told not to rely on the serial # as Savage did not serial # these rifles consecutively from year to year. I know it sounds odd, but that's what I was told. Maybe they could help you on the Savage Collector's forum at 24 hour Campfire. Lots of useful info there on all Savage firearms.

I was also told that many times the "lever boss" stamping was not always easy to read. I had to look at mine several times in different light to be able to tell it was "99G" and not "996" as I first thought.

From what I've been told it sounds like you are right on with the "99E" stamping and a manufacture date of 1953.

Hope this helps,

__________________
-Matt
Mid-Michigan
Back to Top View Dutch4122's Profile Search for other posts by Dutch4122
 
Larry Gibson
Newcomer




Joined: March 22 2004
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 14
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 22 2004 at 2:04pm | IP Logged Quote Larry Gibson

Dutch

Kragman 71 is correct about 311041 being a very good bullet. I use it in several .30 cals for hunting deer. I cast them using "chilled shot" which has 3-4% antimony and some arsenic. I wash the shot with Coleman fuel which gets most of the graphite off. Doesn't take long for the washed shot to dry. However, unless you are absolute sure it is dry do not add to a "hot" pot. I melt if and hold it at 800 degrees and flux thoroughly. I cast at this temp and as soon as the sprue hardens I pop it off and drop the bullets from the mold into a coffee can of cold water. This hardens the lead/antimony alloy yet it remains ductle and will expand instead of shatter like the more brittle lead/antimony/tin alloys. My 311041s drop from the mold at .311" so I leave them "as cast" and seat the Hornady gas checks by pushing them through a Lee .311" die. I then lube with Javelina in a .311" die in a 450.

In 1-10" twist barrels I push these to 1950 fps and maintain 2-3 MOA for the first 5 shots out of a clean barrel. With a 1-12" twist barrel I can push them to 2100 to 2200 fps and maintain the 2-3 MOA. Note I said for the first 5 shots out of the clean barrel. The second 5 shots will open the groups up to 3-4 MOA and you will pick up some leading. The key here is these are hunting bullets and if you haven't got the deer in the first 5 shots you might as well go home and clean the rifle anyway so the second 5 shots increasing inaccuracy moot.

The leading comes out easily with a tight patch and Bore Shine or Shooters Choice. With these soft bullets when testing clean the bore between each 5 shot string. I only use a couple solvent patches and a couple dry ones and its done. It is well worth the effort as terminal effects on deer are the same as with 170 gr Hornady or Speer jacketed bullets out of a 30-30.

In your .300 Savage try 4895 or Varget. Start at about 28 gr and work up. You should get a good load that is workable in the 2100-2200 fps range with either powder as the Savage has a 1-12" twist if I remember right. Several years back I assisted a friend load some for his .300 Savage M99 and they worked quite well. He now casts and loads his own.

Larry Gibson
Back to Top View Larry Gibson's Profile Search for other posts by Larry Gibson
 
Dutch4122
Member


Avatar

Joined: May 31 2003
Posts: 50
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 22 2004 at 3:34pm | IP Logged Quote Dutch4122

Larry-

I have to admit that the Lyman #'s 311041 and 31141 seem to be getting the most recommendations out of all; and I like the bigger meplats than the RCBS 308-165-SIL has for hunting.

Your alloy is also interesting as I get your point about shooting an alloy that is more ductile and less prone to shattering. The arsenic probably allows for better heat treatment as well I'm sure. Think I'll start watching ebay for those Lyman #31141 & #311041 and see if I can get a couple of the older ones that are supposed to be of better quality.

Thanks,


__________________
-Matt
Mid-Michigan
Back to Top View Dutch4122's Profile Search for other posts by Dutch4122
 
Kragman71
Member


Avatar

Joined: January 05 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 89
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 22 2004 at 6:48pm | IP Logged Quote Kragman71

Larry,
Your post really yanked ny chain.
I've been grousing about the slow(1 in 12) twist in the 300 Savage model'99. I get the impression from your post that this slower twist is an advantage to cast bullets.
Would this advantage carry over to a heavier(180 grain) bullet?
Presently,I'm trying to develope a Whitetail load with a paper patched 180 grain bullet.( along with my 30 Carbine load)
Thanks,
Frank
Back to Top View Kragman71's Profile Search for other posts by Kragman71
 
Larry Gibson
Newcomer




Joined: March 22 2004
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 14
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 23 2004 at 9:59am | IP Logged Quote Larry Gibson

Kragman71

"Your post really yanked ny chain. I've been grousing about the slow(1 in 12) twist in the 300 Savage model'99. I get the impression from your post that this slower twist is an advantage to cast bullets.
Would this advantage carry over to a heavier(180 grain) bullet?"

Not sure you've read any of my posts regarding RPM and the adverse affect to accuracy once the thresh hold of 135,000 to 140,000 RPMs are reached. Let's take a simple .308 Winchester for example.

But first let me explain what acceptable accuracy is. For big game hunting with softer alloys I consider 2-3 MOA for 5 shots as acceptable. For target shooting the rifle should shoot pretty much as well as it does with quality jacketed bullets, but 1.75 MOA is about the max acceptable. For plinking it is not too hard to get 2 MOA out of most rifles.

Back to the .308; some will get excellent accuracy in the 1800 to 1900 fps range and then accuracy goes south. Others get the same good accuracy at 2000 to 2200 fps. When discussing the two the reason for the difference revolves around molds/bullet designs, alloys, lubes or the sizing of the bullets. I believe the real culprit is RPMs. You see a bullet from 1-10" twist barrel will hit 140,000 RPM at 1944 fps. Conversely the same bullet with the same load will not hit 140,000 RPM in a 1-12" until 2334 fps. It takes a really smooth barrel and a slow burning powder to produce match accuracy at the 140,000 RPM thresh hold. Most rifles accuracy begins to goes south around 135,000 RPM.

It is my opinion that at that RPM thresh hold the imbalances in the cast bullets are spun to the degree that pitch and yaw create inaccuracy. Primarily I think that the center of rotation does not coincide with the center of gravity and the center of form is probably not exactly with the other two either. The faster the RPMs the more they effect these imperfections and the bullets begin to do take a slight cork screw path, thus groups open. In the case of the .308s many have 1-10" twists and many have 1-12" twist, that would have been the difference in accuracy at the two different velocities not the other variables.

This thresh hold of 135,000 to 140,000 RPMs holds regardless of caliber or cartridge.

With reference to your 180 gr bullets in the .300 Savage. The advantage definately goes to the 1-12" twist. I would try them with RL19 or H4831SC. In the 1-12" twist you should push them to 2100 to 2200 fps with chamber pressure in the 30,000 to 35,000 psi range and good accuracy. Also in PP bullets I've found pure lead doesn't hold up that well at that velocity but if you cast the bullets of chilled shot (you probably won't need to quench them for PP bullets) or a 1-16 tin/lead alloy you will get good accuracy and awesome expansion.

Larry Gibson     
Back to Top View Larry Gibson's Profile Search for other posts by Larry Gibson
 
aladin
Newcomer




Joined: March 23 2002
Posts: 38
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 23 2004 at 11:15am | IP Logged Quote aladin

Larry Gibson wrote:
Kragman71

"Your post really yanked ny chain. I've been grousing about the slow(1 in 12) twist in the 300 Savage model'99. I get the impression from your post that this slower twist is an advantage to cast bullets.
Would this advantage carry over to a heavier(180 grain) bullet?"

Not sure you've read any of my posts regarding RPM and the adverse affect to accuracy once the thresh hold of 135,000 to 140,000 RPMs are reached. Let's take a simple .308 Winchester for example.

But first let me explain what acceptable accuracy is. For big game hunting with softer alloys I consider 2-3 MOA for 5 shots as acceptable. For target shooting the rifle should shoot pretty much as well as it does with quality jacketed bullets, but 1.75 MOA is about the max acceptable. For plinking it is not too hard to get 2 MOA out of most rifles.

Back to the .308; some will get excellent accuracy in the 1800 to 1900 fps range and then accuracy goes south. Others get the same good accuracy at 2000 to 2200 fps. When discussing the two the reason for the difference revolves around molds/bullet designs, alloys, lubes or the sizing of the bullets. I believe the real culprit is RPMs. You see a bullet from 1-10" twist barrel will hit 140,000 RPM at 1944 fps. Conversely the same bullet with the same load will not hit 140,000 RPM in a 1-12" until 2334 fps. It takes a really smooth barrel and a slow burning powder to produce match accuracy at the 140,000 RPM thresh hold. Most rifles accuracy begins to goes south around 135,000 RPM.

It is my opinion that at that RPM thresh hold the imbalances in the cast bullets are spun to the degree that pitch and yaw create inaccuracy. Primarily I think that the center of rotation does not coincide with the center of gravity and the center of form is probably not exactly with the other two either. The faster the RPMs the more they effect these imperfections and the bullets begin to do take a slight cork screw path, thus groups open. In the case of the .308s many have 1-10" twists and many have 1-12" twist, that would have been the difference in accuracy at the two different velocities not the other variables.

This thresh hold of 135,000 to 140,000 RPMs holds regardless of caliber or cartridge.

With reference to your 180 gr bullets in the .300 Savage. The advantage definately goes to the 1-12" twist. I would try them with RL19 or H4831SC. In the 1-12" twist you should push them to 2100 to 2200 fps with chamber pressure in the 30,000 to 35,000 psi range and good accuracy. Also in PP bullets I've found pure lead doesn't hold up that well at that velocity but if you cast the bullets of chilled shot (you probably won't need to quench them for PP bullets) or a 1-16 tin/lead alloy you will get good accuracy and awesome expansion.

Larry Gibson     


1. Every bullet exits a bore with varying degrees of yaw. Usually the least amount of spin still producing stability produces the best groups with any bullet.

2. Harder cast bullets shoot better because their stronger and resist the effects of accelleration and pressure better than softer cast bullets. And they give superior initial resistance which uniforms the burn.

3. Hard cast bullets will group at speeds well in excess of 2000 fps out of 10 twist barrels very similar to quality jacketed bullets, IF you can make them as uniform as jacketed. Goes to cast bullet QC.

4. The cast bullet slugs more in the bore with the variation seen in factory tubes vs the uniformity of premium tubes.

5. Cast bullets can be made to fly to one hole at very high speeds. Just few take up the challenge or equip themselves with the tools to do so.
Back to Top View aladin's Profile Search for other posts by aladin
 
Larry Gibson
Newcomer




Joined: March 22 2004
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 14
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 23 2004 at 11:58am | IP Logged Quote Larry Gibson

aladin

"1. Every bullet exits a bore with varying degrees of yaw. Usually the least amount of spin still producing stability produces the best groups with any bullet."

Yes, but Kragman71 was talking about topend hunting loads with the 180s. I also was talking about the maximum speeds we can push bullets and maintain accuracy with the slower 1-12" twist....and your point?

"2. Harder cast bullets shoot better because their stronger and resist the effects of accelleration and pressure better than softer cast bullets. And they give superior initial resistance which uniforms the burn."

But hard cast bullets aren't the best for hunting, even with a large meplat. An alloy that shoots well and will expand instead of shatter or punch right through is the superior bullet at the velocities of this discussion.

"3. Hard cast bullets will group at speeds well in excess of 2000 fps out of 10 twist barrels very similar to quality jacketed bullets, IF you can make them as uniform as jacketed. Goes to cast bullet QC."

Are you telling us you cast bullets equal in quality to quality jacketed bullets? If so, my hat is off to you. Tell you what; I'll pay you $20 for 50 of your quality cast bullets (that's about twice the price of Sierra Match Kings) and will load them exactly as you say. Any .30 cal will do and I will test them in a 1-10" twist barrel on a rifle that is a consistant MOA performer. Are you up for it?

"4. The cast bullet slugs more in the bore with the variation seen in factory tubes vs the uniformity of premium tubes."

So ok, not sure where this fits into the converstation either but is there a point?

"5. Cast bullets can be made to fly to one hole at very high speeds. Just few take up the challenge or equip themselves with the tools to do so."

You are correct, cast bullets can be made to shoot well at high speed if the barrel twist allows no more than 140,000 RPM at that speed. I have met the challenge, have the tools and have been doing it for quite some time.

Larry Gibson
Back to Top View Larry Gibson's Profile Search for other posts by Larry Gibson
 

Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc

Page of 2 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum

Powered by Web Wiz Forums version
Copyright ©2001-2008 Web Wiz Guide

This page was generated in 0.2656 seconds.