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2guntom
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Posted: November 10 2007 at 3:10pm | IP Logged Quote 2guntom

DC wrote:

I like the LEE slug. I use it in smoothbores, my sons both shoot my loads in rifled shotguns. Loading is pretty straightforward, Blue Dot is my recommendation for powder. A Federal 12S3 wad, as noted, will give better results than the WAA12 (or a Remington wad). The biggest mistake people make with the LEE slug is to put it directly into the wad. A hard card under the slug is needed for any kind of repeatable accuracy. I've never loaded the Lyman. A .690" round ball in a wad does right nice too, but I don't know what it would do out of a rifled barrel.

DC


Leftoverdj wrote:

I suspect that the 29 grain charge of Unique that Paul mentioned did not use a shotcup. 22 grains in Win uniformed slug hulls with Fed 12S3 wads is my play load. I won't claim the accuracy of some of the high velocity loads, but they are pleasant to shot and accurate enough out to 25 or 35 yards.


2guntom wrote:

33.5gr -36.0gr of Herco huh?
The supplied data that came with the mould showed Blue Dot and AA#5 data. The Blue Dot is great, but it's a mess to clean up after; there isn't enough pressure to give a clean burn.

The AA#5 is okay, but it will set you on your keister if you aren't careful.



I am trying to come up with a pseudo-defense-style load for 18" barrel pump guns.
Desired velocity 1000 - 1200 fps,
2-3/4" hulls,
utilizing the Lee 1oz slug,
desired group size 3" or less at 25 yards.

I searched out all the slug-style threads going back 3 years as referenced above and found some info, but there seems to be some things missing.

Federal 12S3 wads are better than Win AA 12 white? (Y/N)

"hard card", is that what you can make yourself by hole punching old kleenex boxes or is that something different?

What is the Min. and Max. for the 22gr of Unique load with the 12S3 wad?

I understand that swapping birdshot for a slug in normal 1oz load recipes will sacrifice velocity, but how bad or how much in say a Green Dot load?

Has anybody tried the Hodgdon HS-6 loads they show?


Edited by 2guntom on November 10 2007 at 3:12pm


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Cheese Man
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Posted: November 10 2007 at 5:44pm | IP Logged Quote Cheese Man

Can't help you with any load data, I don't load for shotgun. I do own a Remington 870 with an 18" barrel and it's for home defense and that puppy holds 7 rounds of 00 buck. And at close range (inside the house) I believe that'll do the job, if not than I'm in deep poo poo. Good luck on your hunt for the right load.
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Paul5388
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Posted: November 10 2007 at 5:55pm | IP Logged Quote Paul5388

Fromm the Hodgdon site:
Quote:
Lead Slugs (Lee Precision)        12        1   oz.      &n bsp; HS-6 ;       Win.  & nbsp;209        WAA12SL&n bsp;       36 gr       10,200 PSI        1450


Edited by Paul5388 on November 10 2007 at 5:56pm
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turbo1889
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Posted: November 10 2007 at 7:50pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

     Okay, 2guntom, first off I'll let you know that I'm a little more adventureous in developing shotgun slug loads then most. I'm willing to venture a lot further out into "no-published data land" then most. I also use mainly the Lyman slugs. I usually use interpolation between many sources of data including both shot and slug load data to figure out exactly how many grains of powder to load with a given experimental combination. It's sort of a mixture of "game-theory" and "statistical-analysis" math I play with a database of published load data via. MS-Excell math spread sheets. Now it's been a while since I messed around with the Lee 1oz. slug but with your eyes now wide open about my methods I'll do my best to answer your questions.

--------------------------------------------------------

Your Stated Goal(s):

     
Quote:
I am trying to come up with a pseudo-defense-style load for 18" barrel pump guns.
Desired velocity 1000 - 1200 fps,
2-3/4" hulls,
utilizing the Lee 1oz slug,
desired group size 3" or less at 25 yards.


--------------------------------------------------------

Your Specific Questions

Q. - Federal 12S3 wads are better than Win AA 12 white?
A. - Yes, the stiff Federal Wads are what works the best. For 12ga. there are three sizes available 12S0, 12S3, and 12S4. This has nothing to do with any brand prefrence for Federal. It's simply a fact that the inner core section of the Federal wads will not get mangled like other wads under the acceleration forces during firing. In fact If you cut open factory slug loads from Fed., Rem., and Win. you will find that only Fed. uses plastic wads in their factory slug loads and Rem. and Win. are still using brown paper card wadding. This is because only the stiffer design of the Fed. wads can withstand slug loads without getting mangled and thus reducing accuracy. In fact the wads used in their cheapest "Walmart" 25 pack of rifled slugs are identical to their 12S3 wad except for the petals have been cut off to accomidate the full bore size slug.

Q. - "hard card", is that what you can make yourself by hole punching old kleenex boxes or is that something different?
A. - Well, I'm not sure what others are using. Some may indeed be just cutting their own with a punch but I use commercially available "nitro-card wad". Some use 20ga. wads inside the wad under the slug, I have found this to be less then ideal because the 20ga. nitro-card wads are a little small in diameter and thus it's a coin flip 50/50 chance as to whether they will get stuck to the bottom of the slug or stay with the wad thus haveing a less then optimal effect of accuracy. A better option is 16ga. nitro-card wads which are a very tight fit inside 12ga. wad's under the slug and thus stay with the wad when wad and slug seperate. Here is a link to some for sale at midwayusa.com: 1/8" thick 16ga. nitro-card wad

Q. - I understand that swapping birdshot for a slug in normal 1oz load recipes will sacrifice velocity, but how bad or how much in say a Green Dot load?
A. - Well, yes and no both, depends on the exact load. I'm not talking about comparing velocity between what the book says and what the Chrony says when shooting loads with the slug swap. I'm taling about comparing Chrony numbers from actual loads with 1oz. of shot and loads with the slug swap. Sometimes you get more velocity, sometimes less, and sometimes about the same. I have found somewhat of a correlation between powder burn speeds. Faster powder choice usually get more velocity and slower powder choice same or less velocity.

--------------------------------------------------------

     According to my load notes the last time I messed around with using shot load data for the Lee slugs best results were obtained when I used European 28gram shot load data and picked loads using the Fed. 12S0 wad and then substituted a Fed. 12S4 wad with a 1/8" nitro-card for 16ga. under the slug inside the wad. Let me know your perfered hull (Fed., Fio., Rem., or Win.) and powder choice (Green Dot, Red Dot, or Unique) and I can help you further along those lines. For most of my 2-3/4" loads for the 12ga. I use the hulls from the Remington 100 round bulk pack at Walmart so that is where I can help you the most. Oh, yah, 28grams = 0.99oz. so they are basically 1oz. loads its just that the Europeans load there loads to about 1,345 fps. rather then the U.S. standard of 1,200 fps. so you can see why there is an advantage to using European data in the swap slug for shot loads.

Edited by turbo1889 on November 10 2007 at 10:25pm


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turbo1889
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Posted: November 10 2007 at 10:39pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

     Added that edit about 28gram European loads being 1oz. loads but with more velocity to my previous post but thought I'd do an additional post on the Federal wads.

This is what they look like:


     Far left white wad is a standard Winchester WAA12 wad which is what is usually called for in load data for the Lee slugs. The other two groups of three wads are all Federal wads. The much stiffer and stronger coil like design of the mid-section of the wad is clearly visible. The pink ones are the 12S3 wad which is of identical (mid-section) length to the WAA12 wad. The white ones are the 12S0 wads which are about 3/32" longer in the mid-section and the brown ones are 12S4 wads which are about 3/32" shorter in the mid-section. The 12S3 and 12S0 wads are both Claybuster copies which are cheaper and just as good as the original ones made by Federal and the brown 12S4 wads are Federal originals --- Claybuster don't make generic copies of them . Middle group is as they come out of the bag and how they should be used with the Lee wad-slugs. and the far right is the wads in modified pusher configuration. Meaning the petals to the shot cups have been cut off with a razor blade knife. This configuration works good for full bore size slugs and buck shot loads. For the picture I placed a single 1/8" thick 12ga. nitro-card on top of each of the pusher wads so that you could see how adding a 16ga. card inside the shot-cup of federal wad makes it so it is roughly equivalent (just 1/32" longer) to the next size longer wad. For the European 28gram load data loads that called for the 12SO (white) wad I dropped all the way down to the 12S4 (brown) wad plus a 16ga. nitro-card wad. This leaves an extra 1/16" of empty space before the crimp which means the folded crimp got pushed in extra deep so that a hole about 1/4" diameter was made exposing the lead nose of the Lee slugs. Thus making for easy identification of the slug loads and adding additional start pressure in the crimp leading to more efficient powder burning and better loads.

     Oh, and before I set off a sh*t storm from shot loaders for whom the WAA12 wad is equivalent to Biblical truth, I'm not nocking the Winchester WAA12 wads. They work very well for shot loads. Better in fact then the Fed. 12S3 wads. They mid-section is more flexible then the Fed. wads and thus they produce better patterns in most shot loads. This equation goes the other direction with wad-slugs, however.

Edited by turbo1889 on November 10 2007 at 10:49pm


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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

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2guntom
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Posted: November 11 2007 at 7:34pm | IP Logged Quote 2guntom

turbo, you da' man!
Excellent information for sure. I had poured over all your posts from previous discussions but I couldn't find the specifics I am seeking...

I've got oodles of the Remington black hulls from game loads and whatnot (used to be $2 - $3 per 25 rds at Walmart). If you have data or extrapolations for these, again, you da' man!

Green Dot and Unique are on hand and those are the powders I was leaning toward. I'm unsure of Herco as it may be too warm (recoil producing), and I've never tried HS-6 - just saw the data at the Hodgdon site.

Guns used are Remington 870 18" cylinder bore (smooth bore), Mossberg 500 Mariner 18" improved cylinder (smooth bore), and maybe a Winchester 1300 22" rifled bore.

The shop I'm working at is going Class 3 so I may eventually get to run some of these through a 6" AOW or 12" SBS (I can hardly wait!)

Thanks in advance for the help.

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turbo1889
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Posted: November 11 2007 at 11:25pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Okay, 2guntom, I'm going put up this post to get some confirmation on the "black Remington" hulls you have and then I'm going to go to bed.

Are these the ones? -- Link to Once Fired Hulls for Sale

Okay, if I've correctly identified the hulls you have then I'll post load data tomorrow when I get home from work.

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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

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2guntom
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 4:55pm | IP Logged Quote 2guntom

Yep, them's the ones. I sure do appreciate the help, the effort, and the knowledge you're sharing!

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turbo1889
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Posted: November 12 2007 at 8:13pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Okay, for those black Remington hulls, here is the 28gram European shot load data for swapping a Lee slug in for the shot (I converted the powder measurements from European grams to our grains and then extraplated a slight adjustment in load volume to fit your hulls. Powder measurements are rounded to the nearest half grain.):

~23.0grains Green Dot / 12S3 wad / 1,350ish fps.
~21.5grains Red Dot / 12S3 wad / 1,350ish fps.
~26.5grains Unique / 12S3 wad / 1,350ish fps.

     Those hulls don't have quite the internal capacity of some others so those loads are calling for the medium length 12S3 wad rather then the long length 12S0 wad. As I said before I'd consider droping down to the shortest 12S4 wad plus a card wad inside the wad under the slug. In order to get the deeper crimp as I outlined, however, the 1/8" thick nitro-cards might be just a little too thick. Two or three 16ga. overshot cards 0.030 thick each for a grand total of an additional 1/16 or 3/32 of an inch would probably be just the ticket. Not 100% sure --- I'd have to actually put together a couple loads to tell and I havn't had any of the Lee slugs around for a while --- I should just buy that mold for the heck of it on my next order even though I've got the Lyman mold and I like them better. But if your punching your own card wads then it's simply a matter of figuring out what kind of card to punch them out of cereal box, tissue box, etc. the possibilities are endless.

     What do you have as far as current supplies? Federal Wads? Card wads or punch to make them? I might be able to throw together a sample bag of stuff in a priority mail envelope so you could figure out exactly what you need to make the load work right.

     As far as the pressure and safety of those loads. They started out at a pressures of 9K to 10K and 12K is the upper limit for the 12ga. 2-3/4" shell. According to my load notes I have successfully used loads about 2.5grains hotter for both the Green Dot and Red Dot in a slightly different hull (Federal Gold Medal) with the slug swap out so they look good.

Edited by turbo1889 on November 12 2007 at 8:33pm


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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

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2guntom
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Posted: November 17 2007 at 8:57pm | IP Logged Quote 2guntom

turbo1889 wrote:

     What do you have as far as current supplies? Federal Wads? Card wads or punch to make them? I might be able to throw together a sample bag of stuff in a priority mail envelope so you could figure out exactly what you need to make the load work right.


Right now I have in my possession a ton of hulls, 2 lbs of powder, and a bunch of primers.

Those 16 gauge nitro cards look larger in diameter than the wads. Do you seat the wad in the hull then seat the card into the bottom of the shotcup? (I leave the petals on for the Lee slug)

Also, you don't mention what primer you use in your recipes. I have CCI, CCI Magnum, and Winchester.

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turbo1889
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Posted: November 17 2007 at 10:43pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

2guntom wrote:
. . . .Those 16 gauge nitro cards look larger in diameter than the wads. Do you seat the wad in the hull then seat the card into the bottom of the shotcup? (I leave the petals on for the Lee slug)

Also, you don't mention what primer you use in your recipes. I have CCI, CCI Magnum, and Winchester.


     Okay first off, The card-wads in the picture in the previous post are not 16 guage card-wads they are 12 guage card wads. The 16ga. card-wads are the same diameter as your Lee slugs and fit real nice inside the wad under the Lee slugs. That picture is an old one I had stored in my computer and it was originally to show how to load another slug that's why the picture has 12gauge card wads in it not 16ga. under the slug. Here is a fresh picture which shows things real nice and clear. I've used the Lyman slugs which I had available rather then the Lee which I don't have on hand right now. They are both the same diameter and designed to fit inside the wad petals:



From the left side the first four are card disks. The thick brown ones are 1/8" thick 16ga. nitro-cards. The white ones are 0.03" thick 16ga. over-shot cards. Together they can be stacked in a variety of combinations under the slug inside the wad to produce an ideal crimp on the loaded shell and improve accuracy and performance by protecting the wad from being torn up by the much harder lead slug. Next, is a Fed. 12S3 wad loaded with a Lyman wad-slug (just visualize a Lee instead) with a 1/8" thick 16ga. nitro-card under the slug inside the shot-cup on the wad. I removed the wad-petal closest to to the camera so you could see the nitro-card and slug inside the wad. Next, is a 12S3 wad with a 16ga. nitro-card stacked on top. If you compare this to the previous picture I posted you will see how the 16ga. nitro-card is smaller then the 12ga. nitro card and will indeed fit well inside the wad-petals under the slug. The last two stacks on the far right are full-bore slugs where you remove the wad-petals unlike the Lee or Lyman slugs. This is what the first picture I originally posted was originally designed to be used to explain.

     Secondly, when you load any kind of "wad-slug" that is a slug like your Lee slugs or my Lyman slugs that go inside the wad-petals you want to put the slugs inside the wad and then load the whole thing as a unit inside the shotgun hull on top of the powder. You do not want to put in the wad and then put in the slug. Why? Because I have found that if you don't put the slug inside the wad before you put the wad in the hull about 10% of the time one of the wad petals will go up inside the hollow on the slug instead of staying around the slug like it is suppost too. This will give you a load that will be a "flyer". That is very bad in a self-defense, hunting, or even target shooting scenerio. Put the nitro-card and slug inside the wad and then put the whole thing into the shotgun hull. Yes it can be done with the Lee Load All loading machine I don't know about some other machines, but last I heard you used the Lee machine.

     Come Monday morning I will be sending an envelope in the mail to the address you sent me via PM packed full of 12S3, 12S4, and a few 12S0 wads along with some 16ga. nitro-card wads and over-shot cards. Not enough to do up several hundred loads but enough to do up about 30 or more test loads so that you can figure out what exactly you need for components and then you can purchase only what you need as in one bag of federal wads (figure out which of the three you need, my bet is either the 12S3 or 12S4) and a bag of 16ga. nitro-cards and/or bag of 16ga. overshot cards.

     Oh, and I used Cheddita primers with my loads but the load data I provided should be good with either the CCI or Win. primers, I wouldn't use the CCI magnum primers without reducing the loads a grain or two.

Edited by turbo1889 on November 17 2007 at 10:45pm


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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

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2guntom
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Posted: November 18 2007 at 2:29pm | IP Logged Quote 2guntom

Oh! Thanks for the information and the goody bag!!!
That'll work out great so I can figure out what works then I'll know what to buy.

When this is mastered, I'm going to buy a few round ball moulds. More than likely a .690 and a .330. I already own a .360, but I'm afraid they may be too big to stack well.

Have you got any tried and true recipes in your notes for round ball slugs and buckshot?

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Posted: November 18 2007 at 3:51pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

     For buck-shot the biggest you really want to go in the 12ga. and get them to stack well is OO buck which is 0.330" diameter ball, OOO buck (0.360" ball) can be used but it don't stack real well. For buck shot loading advise check out this thread:

          Buckshot the easy way. (Two posts by me in this thread -- good info from others as well)

     And of course the first picture I posted in this thread shows the proper wad configuration for buck shot loads in the far right group.

     Now as far as the bigger balls are concerned I only messed with that once when I was trying to make a 3 inch 12ga. load that had three 58-caliber (0.570") muzzle loader balls stacked on top of each other. Only made about twenty loads in various configurations before I gave up because I couldn't get them to make tight patterns even out of an extra-full turkey choke gun. The bigger 0.690" ball cast of hard WW your talking about will probably work a lot better but I don't have any specific help for you in that area, except for I can tell you about 7 different combinations that don't work for a three ball load.

Edited by turbo1889 on November 18 2007 at 4:40pm


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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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