Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  
Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc
(Forum Locked Forum Locked)
Handguns
 Handloads.Com Forum : Handguns
Subject Topic: 454 Casull load request? Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
Nise
Newcomer




Joined: July 06 2008
Posts: 8
Online Status: Offline
Posted: July 28 2009 at 5:07pm | IP Logged Quote Nise

Hello, well I'm now a 1st time owner of a 454 Casull in a Ruger Alaskan. I just had to have it, and thus far I love it. I wanted a ccw w/ some umph and I love steel, need that weight in my hand.

Q?-#1 I wanted a light bullet that I can achieve decent velocity with. I've read about using 45acp loads out of the 454 as a definate no-no, (jacket shedding at increased pressure/velocity at forcing cone). So I got to looking at the 460 and it's use of the Hornady 200grain FTX. Of course, hornady doesn't recommend because it's too long, so when browsing their catalog I saw the critical defense loads, appears to be the same bullet w/ the tip cut off even w/ the jacket. Seeing how you can drive this to 2200+fps out of the 460 i figure it will hold up out of the short barreled Alaskan. I would like to use W296 or H110, or 2400-(as a last resort)   Speer listed a 225gr at 34-36gr w296. I'm thinking about starting at 36gr???



Q?-#2 I saw a load herein that listed a 435gr cast w/ 22 gr W296 shot out of a taurus raging bull. I would like somebody else's thoughts as to this, I just wanted to try some seeing how I have alot of 435gr GC for my 45/70bfr. Thanks in advance
Back to Top View Nise's Profile Search for other posts by Nise
 
lovesrugers
Moderator


Avatar

Joined: August 18 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 3393
Online Status: Offline
Posted: July 29 2009 at 1:11am | IP Logged Quote lovesrugers

First off welcome to Handloads.

Now question #1. The 200 grain bullet used in the 45 Auto critical defense ammo is not the same as that used in the 460 mag load. Bullets are designed to work in a very specific pressure and velocity range. The 200 grain FTX bullet is designed to handle pressures of up to 65,000 psi and offer reliable expansion at the high velocities the 460 mag and 454 casull are capable of. This bullet is also very toughly constructed to stay together and offer a very controlled expansion on big game animals. Because of these facts this bullet may not expand at all at lower velocities, say below 1,500 fps or so. It also may not expand much at all when used in a self defense roll on a two legged predator even if the velocity is high enough. That bullet was just not designed for that.

The 45 Auto bullets on the other hand even though they look close to the FTX bullet are designed to function at pressures of up to 25,000 psi or so and the velocities the 45 auto is capable of. In order to do this the bullet is much more lightly constructed. This gives very rapid expansion and controlled penetration when used on the proper target, two legged predators. Because of this light construction these bullets do not make good hunting bullets for use on 4 legged game, nor do they perform very well when pushed too fast out of a magnum type round.

I see that someone already pointed out to you not to use 45 auto bullets with full pressure 454 rounds. This can be very bad because the thin construction of the bullet can't withstand the pressure. Yes the jacket can shed or even worse it may buckle increasing the bullets diameter. This could then cause an over pressure situation which may blow the gun. Not good at all.

Question #2, once again this is not a good idea. The reason for this is that the load data you are referring to used a proper sized 45 Colt bullet while you want to use a 45-70 bullet. The 45 Auto, 454 Casull, 45 Colt, and 460 mag all use .451-.452" diameter bullets. In fact all 45 caliber handguns use that bullet size. Forty five caliber rifles like the .45-70 on the other hand use a .458-.459" diameter bullet. Using a bullet of .459 diameter in a .451 barrel would be very bad, especially at 454 Casull pressures. Do you really want to hold onto a 65+k psi hand grenade? To my knowledge the only gun Elmer Keith ever blew up while working up his loads was a 45 Colt when he attempted to use a heavy 45-70 bullet in it.

Oh yeah, one final thought as I shoot the 454 Casull out of my longer barreled Super Redhawk. The 454 Casull is way to powerful to be used as a ccw for 2 legged threats. Factory loads and bullets for it were never designed for use on 2 legged predators. Bullet expansion in a 2 legged predator would be very limited due to the tough bullet construction and the limited amount of space the bullet would have to act in. Because of that fact you can pretty much count on the bullet to over penetrate and still have way more than enough energy to continue on to other more undesirable targets or possible multiple undesirable targets. This is not a good thing at all in almost any situation. Keep in mind the 454 Casull has killed pretty much every game animal on the Earth including Elephants, Hippo's and Cape Buffalo.

For your needs if you really want to use your new Alaskan as a CCW I would suggest looking at using 45 Colt ammo with the proper bullets. You can either buy factory ammo designed for self defense or load your own using the proper bullets. Just once again keep in mind with the 45 Colt case you can drive 45 Auto bullets at a velocity above what they are designed to work at. Jerry       

Edited by lovesrugers on July 29 2009 at 1:13am
Back to Top View lovesrugers's Profile Search for other posts by lovesrugers
 
Nise
Newcomer




Joined: July 06 2008
Posts: 8
Online Status: Offline
Posted: July 29 2009 at 4:55pm | IP Logged Quote Nise

Thanks lovesrugers,
     Sorry, I didn't clarify, I sized the .458 slug through my .451 sizer. I am very sure that I can't even get a .458 slug in the cylinder, (once seated). Still wondering if 21gr. W296 would work. I was not aware of the 'intricacies' of W296/H110, (critical minimums), before getting the 454, never used those powders before, was a die hard 2400 fan. I have some newspapers and catalogs I'll soak up and report my findings w/ the 200gr ftx-(flat nose, lol).

     I have more appropriate ccw choices, quite a few in fact, but I wanted to find something under a worst case scenario that could be used. I never plan on using any weapon in self defense, but it doesn't mean I have to be unprepared should the unfortunate occur. Thanks again.

ps-love rugers too! kind of a ford chevy argument around here, I really like s&w's machining- smooth, but prefer the look, feel, and all around ruggedness of Rugers.
Back to Top View Nise's Profile Search for other posts by Nise
 
Nise
Newcomer




Joined: July 06 2008
Posts: 8
Online Status: Offline
Posted: July 29 2009 at 8:53pm | IP Logged Quote Nise

Results
     Much to my relief, and satisfaction, everything seemed to work out well. All out of Ruger Alaskan 454.
Fired into soaked phone books, cover and seperations removed.
200gr Hornady .452 FTX    36gr W296
    Chrono'd velocity = 1501fps.   
    Penetration- 16"
    Expansion- .658" = 146%
    Wt Retention- 158gr = 79%

300gr Sierra JSP-(just out of curiousity) 26gr W296
    Chron'd velocity = 1402fps
    Penetration- 20" + plastic bucket bottom + 3" of non-      soaked backing catalog.
    Expansion- virtually nil
    Wt Retention - 295gr avg. = 98%

435 gr Cast- (RCBS 45-405-FN) GC and resized to .451
   21gr W296 CCI 450
    Chron'd velocity = 1063fps
    
    (Did not perform penetration test)

All were very tolerable, the 300 Sierra had most felt recoil, the 200ftx were very mild, and the 435gr were very comparable to the 200ftx. Primers on both the heavy and light loads indicated no typical pressure indicators and easy case extraction. I did find on the 200gr ftx just a slight bit of unburnt, straw colored powder. Anybody have any suggestions? Crimps were heavy on all. I am very pleased w/ all loads. I still need to perform accuracy tests, could only get about 18yds distance for penetration test.

Back to Top View Nise's Profile Search for other posts by Nise
 
lovesrugers
Moderator


Avatar

Joined: August 18 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 3393
Online Status: Offline
Posted: July 30 2009 at 12:12am | IP Logged Quote lovesrugers

Wow you got some results already. I never did get a chance to recommend a powder charge for the 200 grain bullet but 36 grains of H110/296 was most likely what I would have started with. Without looking at the seating depth of the FTX bullet I bet you could safely move up to a max of 37 grains of H110/296. To me it looks like that bullet seat pretty deep in the case, so it won't allow a large powder charge increase even though it is much lighter than other standard 454 bullets.

As to the performance of all loads tested I am not sure how to really interpret the results. From what I understand wet phone books will tend to show greater expansion of hp type bullets and decreased penetration compared to ballistics gel. Taking that into account when looking at the FTX bullet and we can see it didn't penetrate as far as I would have hoped and it actually appears to have expanded to the point of bullet destruction. Notice the core jacket separation.

Looking at the 300 grain bullet and it appears it did exactly what it was supposed to do, hold together. Keeping in mind that it was a JSP and not a JHP I didn't expect much expansion, but I hoped for more than that. Oh well that bullet is designed to stay together after hitting a bone, skull and whatever else it may encounter on its way through an animal. Even with no expansion it still punched a nice deep .45 caliber hole.

Jerry       
Back to Top View lovesrugers's Profile Search for other posts by lovesrugers
 
lovesrugers
Moderator


Avatar

Joined: August 18 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 3393
Online Status: Offline
Posted: July 30 2009 at 12:15am | IP Logged Quote lovesrugers

Forgot to add, I bet if you would have tested the penetration of the 435 grain bullet it would have equaled or maybe beat the 300 grain JSP.

Jerry
Back to Top View lovesrugers's Profile Search for other posts by lovesrugers
 
Nise
Newcomer




Joined: July 06 2008
Posts: 8
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 02 2009 at 2:54pm | IP Logged Quote Nise

Well, I tried to test the penetration of the 435gr but only loaded a couple and they passed through the test media, lol. They seemed to well outpenetrate the 300gr, even at the slow velocity, 1063fps. They are fun, I tempered the wheel weights, water dropped, but then decided to throw them in the oven at 450 for an hour, then size, .451" and lube. They are my favorite out of the BFR 10" (1550fps). I lack the money and patience for real Ballisic Gelatin, so mud, wood-(punky and rock hard), and wet newsprint are my avg venues. Avg wood seems to show pretty well if a bullet will stay together or not and if it will expand. I've found wood will hold bullets together that ordinarily will open up on game, but if they open up in wood and hold together I'm pretty sure they will do the job, (and so far my tests have shown it to be right, just my experience and my wood, lol). I couldn't get the distance I wanted to test, but I was afraid the 200's wouldn't open up, so at a further distance I think they will behave better, 50-70yds. The lead in them is much harder than say an XTP, lending to the fact that they didn't totally get obiterated. Pretty happy w/ the gun and the loads. I'd like to try some 250gr barnes XPB, which are said to open up at ?1150fps ? I can get them there but I don't really want to spend over a buck a shot doing it. Thanks for the feedback lovesrugers. Any other hints tips would be appreciated.

200FTX-length= .665"
(it takes up .370" of case capacity).
Back to Top View Nise's Profile Search for other posts by Nise
 
BlackDiamond
Member




Joined: August 15 2008
Location: Italy
Posts: 58
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 09 2009 at 2:53am | IP Logged Quote BlackDiamond

Check out this great site

Calibros

and the loading data:

.454 Casull load data

Calibros's tests



Edited by BlackDiamond on August 09 2009 at 3:00am
Back to Top View BlackDiamond's Profile Search for other posts by BlackDiamond
 
Nise
Newcomer




Joined: July 06 2008
Posts: 8
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 18 2009 at 8:42pm | IP Logged Quote Nise

BlackDiamond,
     Interesting links, thank you. Like to see some pics of any ele taken w/ revolvers, 454. I know it's been done, haven't seen it though. Interesting on one of the links, one 300gr hornady xtp didn't open up and the other did. I think i've solved this, I do believe it has to do with the hollow point 'plugging' up, perhaps forming a cone and not allowing greater 'cup' pressure over surrounding pressure. Hornady seems to be correct in their rubber tip inserts, even silicone seemed to work well.
Back to Top View Nise's Profile Search for other posts by Nise
 
Gattlingun
Newcomer


Avatar

Joined: October 15 2008
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 34
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 21 2009 at 8:12am | IP Logged Quote Gattlingun

Nise,

I struggled figuring out the 454 load a while back. There is more and more info out there.

Anyway, I am trying to save money and do as much as I can in house, ie casting bullets.

I have settled on two loads

230 grain handcast that I also use in my 45 ACP with 16.5 grains of HS-6. No chrono results for this load.

300 gr Handcast with gas check
28.1 gr H110
Chrono results just shy of the 1600 FPS mark.

These


through this


My friend was out the other day and brought his Alaskan and fired the 230grain rounds and they were all he wanted to shoot. I tried them in that pistol and the recoil of that little pistol was plenty.    Don't know if any of this helps but if you are like I am, I compare as many data sources as possible.

Good Luck

__________________
This is the dawning of the rest of our lives.
Back to Top View Gattlingun's Profile Search for other posts by Gattlingun
 
Nise
Newcomer




Joined: July 06 2008
Posts: 8
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 26 2009 at 7:29pm | IP Logged Quote Nise

thanks gattlin,
     I don't have any HS-6 nor have I tried it, trying to keep things simple w/ what I have in house, if possible. Well, I used the 230hardcast RN for my acp and they aren't too bad w/ 11.5gr unique, I need to find some better filler. lol, man too bad I didn't take a video. I used my wifes little cotton toe nail paintin swabs as filler, it was like I was shooting black powder, the filler schrapneled and was everywhere. I thought about the pre-lubed disks for cap n balls? I talked to a guy this last weekend and his recommendations were hard cast for everything, I'm leaning that way, but the light 200gr ftx would do nicely on a whitetail. I really do like the .452 sized .458/405gr which seem to throw at about 435, but man, they thump ya seriously. I shot about 40 of those and I couldn't take much more. I did have a couple jump the cylinder, really have to crimp those just shy of warping the walls. I reseated the 5 that jumped and decided to go one handed, that smarted by the end. Those things really penetrate tho. If I can squirrel some money away I really want to get the lyman 452651-325gr or the RCBS .45-300-FN, (which by the looks of it you might have the latter?) As far as ft/lbs or taylor ko values go the 300-350gr class seem to be best suited for my Alaskan, I had the best groups w/ the 300gr jacketed flatpt Sierra.
Back to Top View Nise's Profile Search for other posts by Nise
 

Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc

Sorry, you can NOT post a reply.
This forum has been locked by a forum administrator.

  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum

Powered by Web Wiz Forums version
Copyright ©2001-2008 Web Wiz Guide

This page was generated in 0.2656 seconds.