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Subject Topic: 45-90 Comparative Ballistics in a 40 Cal Post ReplyPost New Topic
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drcook
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Posted: August 30 2009 at 7:19pm | IP Logged Quote drcook

Please pardon the wordiness, of this post, but I am trying to go somewhere with it and accomplish a mission.

Over on the Shiloh board, Don (ranch13) timberlake, myself and others started a discussion about a caliber for the new rifle Don is planning to get for his wife. From what Don said, Carol's eyes sure lit up when she held a 40-65 Shiloh Sharps Montana Roughrider.

It has also got me thinking that we should be able to come up with a combination that would enable our wives to
be competitive and not be beat up by a rifle, nor shoot something that just doesn't have the oomph to cut it

While typing this post up I decided I should think about fitting the extra youth/ladies buttstock that I have to my 40-82 CPA and let my wife shoot it for the extra long ranges.

So here goes:

From what we saw this year at Alliance with the gusty winds, I think we can say that a 45-90 with a 540 grain bullet would be a pretty competitive load. Additionally, we know that a 45-90 can in itself be tiresome to shoot for as many rounds as is shot at Alliance, I know my wife wouldn't be able to tolerate a 90, even with one of Harlan Sage's cheater buttplates (which I admit to using both on my 90 and my 110 when I have to shoot that many times).

I threw out the suggestion that I thought a 40-82 Crossno (40-82 Silhouette) with a fast enough twist would make a good rifle. My reasoning is that a 40-82 offers comparable ballistics as to a 45-90. I used a ratio based on my loading that my buddy Jeff and I worked out before he moved to Wyoming.

The other variable is to be able to hold the rifle for offhand shooting. So would a 40-82 become too much in a rifle that can be shot offhand by a person that is not huge. I can use my wife as a test for this issue and see if she can hold mine up.

85/540 = X/430

where the 85 = 85 gr 2F goex. 540 = 540 gr Paul Jones Creedmore bullet

where 430 = 430 grain Creedmore bullet and X is the amount of powder needed to complete the equation

Now I realize that this won't be 100% apples to apples because of the efficiencies of the 45 calibers, and the fact that it takes more wind energy to move the mass of a 540 gr slug -vs- a 430 gr one when all else is equal but I think it can get us close

When the equation is completed, it comes out to 68 gr of 2F powder. This is really close to my initial test loads of 70/71 grains in my 40-82, which I have to tune in

The other piece of the puzzle is twist rate. I think a 1:16 is a bit slow for the ranges that Alliance (and the other gong shoots) have. I was watching Jeff's 40-70 SS fall apart in the wind and at the longer ranges, but I don't think for lack of velocity. I think the bullets lost their stability and were able to be pushed around by the wind because of it. Am I wrong here ?

ON THE OTHER HAND I worked the ratio of 18/458 = X/408 and it works out to be 16, so the 1:16 twist balances the ration out.

the barrel I have is a 1:13 twist Lilja barrel. Shiloh only offers 1:16 twist barrels. I know that Green Mt accidently made some 1:14.5 twist barrels that folks are having good results from, and I heard that Douglas made a barrel for someone that was faster twist than their std 1:16.

So what says everybody. Does the 40 caliber need the case capacity of the 40-82's or can a 40-65 with a fast enough twist be driven to a fast enough velocity with 3F powder to enable it to stay stable and accurate to 1000 yds and cut the wind.

We may want to invite some others over to contribute to the discussion. My experience with the 40 calibers is theoretical only. My rifle has only been shot 5 times to make sure it functioned.

There used to be a ton of info on the MSN BPCR board about the 40-82, but that is gone now and the replacement is not very friendly to use. The post were migrated but I don't have the new site anymore

dave








Edited by drcook on August 30 2009 at 7:36pm


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Posted: August 30 2009 at 8:21pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Dave, there's alot of possibilities in the 40's. I think your idea of the 82's either the crossno or one of its variants may be a pretty competitive cartridge.
Another one that had quite abit of favor in the days of yore was the 40-90 bottle neck.
I believe a 14 twist would probably handle the heavier bullets just fine.

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Posted: August 31 2009 at 1:11am | IP Logged Quote Lurker

This last week, I just bought a Brown BPCR in .40-65 and I am very interested in what you are contemplating.

If I read the specifications right, I think my .40-65 has a 1:16 twist.

I have another 1885, it's a Winchester/Miroku. I have contemplated getting a Badger BPCR barrel. I would have it the same half octagonal, half round, 1,050 diameter at the muzzle, configuration, as the Browning BPCRS are, and have it chambered in .40-82 WCF.

As to the twist of the barrel I had not, up until now settled on a figure.

Keep the thread alive, and informed about your moves, I am very interested.

Bill

Edited by Lurker on August 31 2009 at 1:16am
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drcook
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Posted: August 31 2009 at 5:06am | IP Logged Quote drcook

Bill,

The 40-65 BPCR you have has a 1:16 twist Badger on it.

Then a couple more things.

1. I know for sure Badger has been sold. One of my acquaintances had a barrel on order, and when he called to check on the status, a new person answered the phone, indicated Ernie wasn't calling the shots anymore and that his barrel was not going to be made for him. He has since bought a barrel liner to have the original barrel he had repaired.

I also spoke to one of the people ( a manufacturer) that build my rifles and they heard that Badger was sold (they used mostly Badgers) the fact that the company was
sold is all they knew (or would say at this time)

So you need to keep in mind that if you are wanting a 40 cal 1:16 twist badger, you need to acquire one soon just in case the rumors that they are going to quit making BPCR barrels is true and the existing supply dries up

2. Badger only makes 1:16 twist barrels. Green mountain makes a 1:14.5 barrel that is priced right. Some of my acquaintances have used this barrel with good results. Lilja makes a 1:13 twist barrel, and you might be able to get Douglas to make a 1:14 twist one.

3. If you do this project, you will need to get the dies.
CH4D and Buffalo Arms has them (BACO's dies are CH4D just for the record in this caliber).

4. You only need the full length sizer, which CH4D will sell you. Then you get a Redding Competition seater die for a 40-65. That is what I have done myself. The 40-65 Redding works for the 40-82 Crossnoe and will work for the version made by Lone Star, just not the original version made by Winchester, which was a bottleneck cartridge. The Redding die will seat the bullets with .001 - .002'ish runout.

5. 40-82's are made from 45-90 cases. you will need to play around with different case lubes until you get one that really does the job without wrinkling the cases. Kirk Bryan (Shiloh owner) indicated in a post once about some RCBS Case Slick working for reforming cases. I bought some, but haven't tried it yet.

Starline direct is the best place to get brass anymore, especially if you want to buy enough that will last a long time and be the same lot. The price they post for 250 includes shipping, so there is plenty of savings.

6. BACO makes some pretty decent bullet moulds and the price is right. The bullets are round, consistent, the moulds are good. The only complaint I have (and its a personal one) is that I would have liked to see the grease grooves be just a little bit wider, more on the order of the size that Steve Brooks or Paul Jones makes them. We are talking in the .001's here.

That is all for now.

Dave






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Posted: August 31 2009 at 6:59am | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Lurker that Browning chamber is such that you should be able to seat a snover or other tapered bullet way out, and get 60 grs or more of 3f into a formed 45-70 case. The 40-65 with a 400 gr bullet will stay competitive with the 45's at long range up to about a 20 mph or so wind.

Badger has been "sold" altho Ernie and co are still in charge. So other than an investors group owning major shares not much is changing.
Badger has huge military contracts to fill, so yes the sporting arms barrels will be playing second fiddle for the time being.
BACO and others have a good supply of Badger barrels on hand so it shouldn't be to much of a problem to find one when you want one for now anyway.

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Posted: August 31 2009 at 7:28am | IP Logged Quote drcook

Don,

Sounds like you have more info than me on Badger. Are they making tactical rifle barrels ? That would be what I would surmise as there are plenty of shops making quality barrels for AR's.

It's the honest truth about my friends barrel and what he was told. Robert (my friend here in Ohio) has one of the Uberti 1876's that has a chamber that is not correct. (CH4D now makes special dies for Uberti chambers). He placed the order, and when he called to check on it, the guy in the office flat out told him that Ernie wasn't setting the priorities anymore. He had ordered a reamer from Dave Manson for the correct chamber and as I said has since bought a barrel liner that our local smith is going to install and rechamber so that it is original.

Not to divert this thread, but he took that Uberti 1876, repolished the reciever, and sent it to Doug Turnbull to have recased. You would not believe how slick that rifle looks.

Myself, I want a 1:16 twist 45 caliber Badger barrel. So I am going to see if I can get one reserved.

Dave


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Posted: August 31 2009 at 7:43am | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Dave what my source tells me is they're making 20mil barrels. It's probably true Ernie doesnt set priorities, but it sounds as tho he still rules the shop.
Check with BACO and CSA for one of those barrels, I don't know if he has any 16 twists, but CrossfireOOps has a fair stock of 18 twist 45's.

On the Turnbull thing I've seen a couple of their guns in the Sidney Ne Cabela's gun library, and they are pretty fancy.

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Posted: August 31 2009 at 7:44am | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Forgot to add to check with Track of the Wolf for one of those barrels also.
They sell barrel liners as well, but I'm not sure who's making them.

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Posted: August 31 2009 at 8:28am | IP Logged Quote drcook

Don and Bill,

I remembered that I had a 40-65 case here that I had bought to send as a sample to a friend. I did a little experiment. I simply dumped some 3F in until the case was full. No drop tube, or compression, just filled it to the top and carefully went across the top to smooth it off. Here are the results

40-65 Starline case: 58.6 grains Goex 3F
40-82 case        : 71.6 grains Goex 3F

                    : 13 grains extra powder capacity

The 40-82 case was formed from a 45-90 Starline case using a CH4D FL sizer

So the question becomes is it worth the extra expense for the 40-82 cartridge or do you simply get a mould that has the 1st 2 driving bands reduced in size so as to seat the bullet further out. I don't have a chronograph so I can't run down and get a velocity reading. Maybe I can sneak one in soon and do so.

Dave

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Posted: August 31 2009 at 8:37am | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Dave some chrono readings would be interesting.
I haven't chrono'ld the 3f express loads, but 60 grs of cartridge with a 400 gr bullet was doing just short of 1200 from Carol's short barreled roller. Just guesing from chrono results from other cartridges, I'ld imagine the full case of 3fexpress to be pushing 1300?

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Posted: August 31 2009 at 11:43am | IP Logged Quote Lurker

Thats a bunch of information to digest.

For some reason, this board seems to draw the elite of the knowledgable, more than any other board I have seen.

This will sure reduce the learning curve for me.

Thanks to both of you guys for sharing your knowledge...!

Bill
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Posted: August 31 2009 at 2:16pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Bill I'm just yapping what I have seen and done. Don't know as it would really qualify for the title of knowledge tho.....

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Posted: September 01 2009 at 5:18pm | IP Logged Quote John Boy

Gents, if one is looking for reloading info for the 40-65 and - twist - barrels - etc, send Bill Bagwell an email. He loads for his wife and a coupule years back she took Lady Championship with here 40-65 at Raton. His alias of course is rednck

Man, I'm having trouble typing ... them margaritas sure do taste Fine!

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Posted: September 01 2009 at 6:35pm | IP Logged Quote drcook

John,

I have talked to Bill on and off over the years. In fact Bill helped resolve a problem for me when I got hold of a case of Goex that was 3F in 2F cans. Goex, with Bill's help, shipped me a replacement case. From what I gather, Sidra is a really nice lady and a super shot. And she has done really well (exceptionally well I should say) with her 40-65. In fact it is probably her ability that is helping overcome the fact that a 40-65, or lets just say a 40, with a 16 twist barrel, starts running out of gas around 850 to 900 yds unless driven really fast.

I base that statement on an analysis that was done by, if I remember correctly, Dan Theodore. He was discussing percentage of hits and such at different ranges and saw that as the range got nearer to 1000 yds, a 1:16 barrel started to lose its accuracy.

My friend Jeff (JeffF over on the Shiloh board), has a 1:16 twist 40-70 SS Shiloh. At Alliance, it was having a hard time getting through the wind . He and I (we were shooting partners here in Ohio and shoot really well together and spot for each other) shot within 1 or each other on day 1. Both of us were shooting 45-110's. On the buffalo match, my 45-90 was punching through the wind, while his 40-70 just wasn't shooting as good. And it's not that either one of us are any better than the other, since Jeff helped get me going, it shook out that we were pretty evenly matched. He outshot me by 1 the first time we shot at Alliance together.

I decided that I am going to sneak a chronograph in the door and go get some velocity readings on my 40-82. That will give us a little more information to go on.

Dave

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Posted: September 04 2009 at 6:32pm | IP Logged Quote Kurt

Dave.

This is what I did with the rifle I had build for my Daughter in the .45-70 caliber.
The rifle is a .45-70 #1 Shiloh with a halve round barrel.
I put one of these recoil reducers in the bud stock and it dampened it down to where anybody can handle.
http://www.mercuryrecoil.com/suppressors/index.htm#top
After shooting the rifle with a heavy load I wish I would have made it a 90.
These mercury tubes are small enough that you can put two in the stock if needed.
With the single tube I put in her rifle it just goes 2 oz over the NRA weight limit of 12#2oz but you can pull the tube out easily to make weight if you need to do this.

I have shot my .40-70 several times at Alliance and the Buffalo on the Shiloh range at 1200 yards and if the winds are calm or at least steady I had no problem staying on target. But the 420 grain bullet gets a little squirrely when the wind picks up.
I find if you keep the velocity of the .40 subsonic, the bullets I use seem to hold better.
I use 1f EXP in the .40.
I think most drive the .40's to fast. Accuracy is very good with a .40.

Kurt

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Posted: September 04 2009 at 7:22pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Timberlake told me yesterday when he was here, that he thought his 82 would do the best with a 14 twist and 430 gr bullets or heavier, for the long range stuff, but wasn't sure even then it would hang with the 45's in a wind.

Kurt I think you might be on to something keeping those 40's subsonic, as Carol's 65 shot really well on the long stuff when we could get her sights walked into it.

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Posted: September 04 2009 at 8:59pm | IP Logged Quote drcook

If that is the case, and Don would want to build Carol a 45-70 with a mercury reducer, Cabelas has this one on sale

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?i d=0065973216599a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH_all&returnPage=se arch-results1.jsp&Ntk=Products&QueryText=sharps&sort=all&_re questid=134136&_requestid=131978&_D:hasJS=+&N=0&Nty=1&hasJS= true&_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/search/search-box.jsp.form23& _dyncharset=ISO-8859-1

it weighs 10 1/2 lbs to start with

dc


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Posted: September 04 2009 at 9:13pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

That rifle (or most any 45-70) might work real well without the recoil tubes, especially if it was loaded with the 425 gr semipointed bullet Crossfire had leeth make a mold for.

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Posted: September 04 2009 at 9:14pm | IP Logged Quote drcook

I have 2 bullets that I will use in my 40-82. Both are in the 430 grain range. 1 is a Brooks made Creedmore profile, the other a Hoch nose pour. I am curious to see how it will do and the velocity it will get.

But I do know one thing. This is a very civilized discussion and for that I am grateful to all who are partaking in it and offering up useful information that in the end is going to benefit our spouses, or just others who shoot 40's.

dc


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Posted: September 05 2009 at 6:00am | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Dave I'm really curious to see how your 82 does velocity wise, and recoil, when you get it up and running good. It is an intriquing cartridge, with possibility of many uses.

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