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4gunfun
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Posted: May 01 2010 at 6:53pm | IP Logged Quote 4gunfun

Hi all,
Newbie here and at reloading. I'm working up a load for for a 38 special +p. I read on here the other night that IMR4227 and H4227 are the same powder is this true. I found IMR 4227 at the store today and bought it but the recipe calls for H4227 Help!!!!

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winwun
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 3:59am | IP Logged Quote winwun

This may not be much of an answer, but IMR was one company and Hogdon is another . . .

Different companies will sometimes reference identical numbers for the same perceived application.

Actually, the same company makes both IMR and Hogdon stuff, Hogdon having bought out IMR a few years back, but the powders are,IMO, in some cases, radically different.

I have found Hogdon powders, IMO, to be very unforgiving when you depart from the published applications -- in other words, again, IMO, Hogdon stuff is strictly for those who "go by the book", and does not kindly accept "downloading".

As an illustration, I shoot a lot of IMR 3031 in my bottlenecks, and in an 06 with a 150 gr BT or an 8mm with a 180 gr BT, 30 gr of the IMR makes a nice plinking load -- try that much of a reduction with the Hogdon equivalent, and you will not be happy . . .



Edited by winwun on May 02 2010 at 4:14am


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fltbed
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 7:10am | IP Logged Quote fltbed

The load data for IMR4227 and H4227 have always been different and you should only follow the correct load data for whatever one you are using.

However, the load application (what calibers they are suitable for) have always been pretty much the same so when Hodgdon purchased IMR they decided to discontinue H4227 and only offer the IMR version.

Itís sad because there is way more load data, for more calibers and bullet weights, for the Hodgdon version than the IMR one. I wish Hodgdon would have gone the other way and discontinue the IMR version, as I donít know anyone who used it and several of us who loaded the Hodgdon version.

Perhaps a quick e-mail to IMR/Hodgdon can give you better insight as to where to go from here.

Jeff


Edited by fltbed on May 02 2010 at 7:12am


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4gunfun
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 7:44am | IP Logged Quote 4gunfun

Thanks guys,
So the load data for H4227 is just for the left over powder. I know you can't usually (ever) substitute the different powders with the same numbers. I guess I'll try the email idea.

4gunfun

Edited by 4gunfun on May 02 2010 at 7:45am
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Paul5388
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 8:32am | IP Logged Quote Paul5388

I just looked at the Hodgdon site http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp and found both IMR 4227 and H4227 in .44 Mag and they are identical loads of 22.0 gr with a 240 Nosler.

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Rocky Raab
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 9:39am | IP Logged Quote Rocky Raab

Check the Hodgdon website for data using either powder. I'd look it up for you, but you didn't specify a bullet type or weight.

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4gunfun
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 4:18pm | IP Logged Quote 4gunfun

Hey rocky
I have horaday xtp 125 grn and 140 grn. I also have some 158 grn
missouri lead bulllets. 12 brn hardness. Is that hard enough for +p?

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nhblaze
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 9:24am | IP Logged Quote nhblaze

IMR 4227 is same as H-4227 if made in Australia


140 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon H4227 .357" 1.455"        12.4 1121 19,400 CUP       
146 GR. SPR JHP Hodgdon H4227 .357" 1.370"        12.0 1085 18,400 CUP       
158 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon H4227 .357" 1.455"        11.0 964 17,600 CUP       
170 GR. SIE JHC Hodgdon H4227 .357" 1.450"        10.6 950 17,600 CUP       


from Hodgdon site   

Edited by nhblaze on May 03 2010 at 9:25am


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Rocky Raab
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 11:31am | IP Logged Quote Rocky Raab

If you follow the old rule of thumb that says peak pressure divided by 1400 equals acceptable BHN, then loads that are expected to run 17,000 or so will be great with bullets of BHN 12.

Hodgdon has said that they will continue to manufacture IMR powders according to established IMR recipes, so that there is no change in how IMR powders perform. Those recipes are probably NOT the same as ones used for the original Hodgdon powders, so I'd treat them as different powders - then and now.

They're like fraternal twins: same parents but not identical.

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4gunfun
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 5:01pm | IP Logged Quote 4gunfun

Now I have a pound of imr powder and nowhere to go. Hi nhblaze
fellow sks man. Where did you get your austraila info from?
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nhblaze
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Posted: May 04 2010 at 6:27am | IP Logged Quote nhblaze

I called Hodgdon and was told that the ADI powder made in Australia would be moved over to the IMR line. So ACCORDING TO HODGDON what they are really dropping is the old IMR-4227, and replacing it with what used to be H4227 but will now be labelled "IMR-4227".


http://www.hodgdon.com/contactus.html

H 4227 is not listed on the web site anymore
but IMR 4227 is listed on IMRs site


Your avatar fooled me   

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fltbed
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Posted: May 04 2010 at 6:33am | IP Logged Quote fltbed

I found some 38 Special data (not +P) for IMR 4227 in my Lee second edition.

125 gr. Jacketed bullet
10.1 - 10.8 gr. IMR4227
Vel. 930 f.p.s. (10.8 gr.)

140 gr. Jacketed bullet
9.9 - 10.3 gr. IMR4227
Vel. 900 f.p.s. (10.3 gr.)

158 gr. Lead
9.1 - 9.5 gr. IMR4227
Vel. 825 f.p.s. (9.5 gr.)

This is the only bullet they also show data for H4227 as well.

9.0 - 10 gr. H4227
983 f.p.s. (10 gr.)

Hope this helps.

Jeff


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Posted: May 04 2010 at 7:09am | IP Logged Quote fltbed

nhblaze wrote:
I called Hodgdon and was told that the ADI powder made in Australia would be moved over to the IMR line. So ACCORDING TO HODGDON what they are really dropping is the old IMR-4227, and replacing it with what used to be H4227 but will now be labelled "IMR-4227".


If thatís the case and the new IMR4227 is the same as the old H4227 itís a monumental (emphasis on mental) mistake on Hodgdonís part.

IIRC, the 4227ís normally fell between 296/H110 and W680 on most folks burn rate charts, with the IMR version being faster burning. However, from my experience in loading H4227 in actual cartridges, itís a tad faster burning than 296/H110. All the load data Iíve seen certainly seems that way as well.

So, if you have some of the new IMR4227 and use the old data, youíll be getting less velocity and pressure. However, if you have the old IMR4227 and use the advice to use data from H4227/newIMR4227 youíll be over pressure. (You have to agree this could happen, especially with a new reloader getting reloading advice off the interweb.)

If this is the case Iíve got to ask, who came up with this bright idea?

Jeff


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4gunfun
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Posted: May 04 2010 at 9:19am | IP Logged Quote 4gunfun

This is amazing if Hogden really screwed up this bad. If I use the old lee book data with my new IMR 4227 powder I should be slower and less pressure than the data table. But if nhblaze is right I should be able to make my +p ammo with my new IMR H4227. I don't know if this is worth the brain damage. and possible danger. I would need to get a chronograph. Is that what it's called to check a load speed.
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albert53000
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Posted: May 07 2010 at 2:19pm | IP Logged Quote albert53000

My question is if I run hard lead bullets 200 grains out of my 45 5 inch barrel more then 900fps will I get slide slap?Lymans reloading manual lists these velocitys 900fts and faster for a 200 grain hard cast lead bullet.But when I clocked a safe load for over 900fps and shot it out of my series 70 gold cup it snapped my rear sight pin.I changed this pin several times till I finely slowed these loads down.Is this causing slide slap?I read an article about this about this about 20 years ago. albert53000

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Posted: May 07 2010 at 9:26pm | IP Logged Quote fltbed

Welcome to the forum albert. You may want to try starting a new thread with this question, might get more feedback.

Slide slap? Thatís a new one on me. I have no idea what it means.

Colt Gold Cupís normally shipped from the factory set up to run light target (Bullseye) loads. Light recoil spring, (IIRC 10 lb. spring comes to mind) and a fine (i.e. fragile) set of adjustable target sights.

SOP for converting a Gold Cup to work with standard power ammo was to replace the recoil spring with a standard 16 lb. one, replace the front sight with a dovetail style, (or a wide tenon style if you wanted to go ďold schoolĒ) and replace the rear sight with a low profile Bomar style.

Optional upgrades are, a full length guide rod with shok-buf, also an EGW flat bottom firing pin stop.

Hope this helps.

Jeff


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