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Subject Topic: 45-70 lfp loads, 405 grain, imr4198 Post ReplyPost New Topic
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puke
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 9:33pm | IP Logged Quote puke

I've been beating myself up trying to get familiar with loads for my 1895 marlin cowboy, long octagon barrel.
I've got the little "all the loads you can imagine" book from cabelas. But I would like personal input. sometimes the pressures are not even listed. Which is something that I believe a bullet or a powder company should always list. (yes, I know they vary from gun to gun).

A lot of the published data uses cup pressures of 25 to 27k cup for maximum loads. But marlin says their 1895 will do 40kcup or more. Since a lot of the data lacks pressures. I thought I would start with about 44 grains of imr 4198. on a 405 gr. hardcast lead. (I am using 48 gr. RE7 for the 405 gr. jacketed, and didnt' want to use the same powder for the hard cast. I'd like to be able to keep things simple.)

OK,
Anybody think I'm good with 44 grains as a start point. If it's good I'll stay there. I know guys that say they are doing 50, but I'm going to stay somewhat lower...and if I am hunting I'll use the jacketed. I also know there are those that will say to do 10 grains less. The data varies all over the place.
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STCM(SW)
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 10:37pm | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

Welcome Puke!

What are you looking for?
A hunting load or a target load?

I dumped my Marlin 1895 in 45-70 as I had problems with it taking some of the loads with the Hornady gumby bullets & heavy bullets.
Now have a Ruger #3 with a Ruger #1 stock I am loading up for.

This is Lyman loads:



Good luck!

Edited by STCM(SW) on May 03 2010 at 7:21am


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Paul5388
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 12:12am | IP Logged Quote Paul5388

Welcome to the forum Clay!

I guess I'm too much of a weenie to shoot with the amount of powder Nick (STCM) posted. I've shot some of that 1800 fps with a 400 gr bullet, but I sorta prefer to keep all of my plastic and stainless teeth where they're supposed to be and not shaken loose.

After a while, all of that recoil ceases to be fun, so I use a lot lighter loads in my .45-70 Handi rifle.

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Ranch 13
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 8:20am | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Probably ought to drop back to around 30 grs and find out just how much fun and deadly accurate the 45-70 can be.
Never have understood the reasoning behind trying to make the 45-70 into a 458 win lite, when in it's original form it'll blow a hole thru anything that walks this continent at ranges 200 yds and under.

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puke
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 8:25am | IP Logged Quote puke

A hunting load is what I wanted.
(After I'm satisfied with a hunting load for the lead and also jacketed. I'll tone some down and use 2400 or unique or something for some plinking loads. But I always do my serious hunting loads first.)

Also, it's also doubling as a bear protection load. A teenager got eaten by a bear not far from here (where we fish) 2 years ago, and I now have a 454 and a 45-70. I have small kids that like to fish and camp.I don't know why the bears have come back. I think they were mostly gone since the 1930s...but in the last ten or 15 years...there are a few around...and I don't plan on any of them messing with my kids if I have anything to do with it. The year after the kid was killed, (utah) I think about ten bears were blown away by campers not interested in gambling with their life. Just last year two women fought a bear off of their grandpa who was attacked (sleeping on a cot) and then they blasted him with a 44. (the bear had bothered them earlier in the day and injured their dog...but they got him to leave and they thought that was the end of it). That is some tough women. Don't everbody line up to marry one of them at once.

I would expect that one kid would still be alive if the campers had it in their foremost minds that a bear is always dangerous due to it's strength, I think before that time...nobody viewed bears as being numerous enough to even see one here in Utah, but things really changed after that incident.
Ok enough of my babble, and thank you for the responses.
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Leftoverdj
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 9:29am | IP Logged Quote Leftoverdj

You're going to need a GC bullet to get anywhere close that load. Accuracy goes south with plain base 405 grain bullets when you get much past 30 grains of either 4198. My two .45-70s like 31 grains under the Lee 459-405-HB. Other rifles might tolerate a few grains more.
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puke
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 9:48am | IP Logged Quote puke

I am not casting my own, these are marketed as super hard cast...but i realize that means nothing unless I check it with one of those brinnel hardness thingies...I do know it is definitely very hard compared to regular lead and you can't mark it with a fingernail,.
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Ranch 13
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 10:23am | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

I do my serious hunting loads in the 45-70 with black powder at the original ballistics. There isn't a bear made that'll keep one of those 405 inside him under 100 yds with the velocity at or around 1400.
Especially for "defense" loads, a mild mannered load with ample power to do the job, that is shootable with good accuracy is way more effective than a firewalled load that makes you flinch so that everytime you yank the trigger,you can't be real sure of where the bullet is headed.
Might want to try some 5744 for your plain based cast bullet loads.

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drinks
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 10:58am | IP Logged Quote drinks

The first thing you need to do is slug your barrel, find the groove diameter and make sure to get bullets that are at least .001" larger or accuracy will be poor and leading very likely, about 30gr of 4198 will give 1300, +/- fps with 405gr bullets and pressures at 20,000 psi or so.

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puke
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 12:05pm | IP Logged Quote puke

So,
Are you telling my I should pull my 44 gr. imr 4198 lfp loads...again? I've got a few of them but not a full box.

I'm going to be better at pulling loads than shooting.

Anybody know what the pressure is on that load. I was thinking (or must have found the info. at some place)...that the pressure was around 35kcup..or thereabouts.
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 12:43pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

No probably no need to pull those rounds, but maybe load the rest of your box with 32 grs, take the whole mess out to the range and let your shoulder, your gun and the target decide how to proceed.
On your way back, stop at someplace that sells books and pick up a copy of the Lyman 49th reloading manual.

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Leftoverdj
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 12:46pm | IP Logged Quote Leftoverdj

Pull 'em. You're well above the recommendations for even modern lever rifles.

While 35-40k cup sounds like a reasonable extimate of the pressure, because of the larger case head area of the .45-70, the bolt thrust is greater than it would be with something like a .30-30 at the same pressure because the pressure has more area to push against..

Despite the claims of some of the bullet makers, hardness will not substitute for a gas check. One of the things the GC does is to protect the base against flamecutting. If the hot cases can find the slightest path past the bullet, they will cut into lead alloy. Not so much so into copper, or the GC may simply give a better seal.
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STCM(SW)
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 12:46pm | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

"So,
Are you telling my I should pull my 44 gr. imr 4198 lfp loads...again? I've got a few of them but not a full box."

You may not want to try that load at all......

That starting load of 5744 should do what you want with out breaking your shoulder.....



Edited by STCM(SW) on May 03 2010 at 3:25pm


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Boomer
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Posted: May 04 2010 at 8:22am | IP Logged Quote Boomer

I Agree, pull em. Even the speer number nine tops out at 38 grains with the 405 jacketed.



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Old Ranger
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Posted: May 04 2010 at 8:22am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Big heavy rounds with modest speed is all it takes. I agree with Ranch, that at the blackpowder vel. a well placed chunk of lead will knock a bear on his hindquarters! Don't wear yourself out with hot loads. You'll only start to flinch, miss, and hurt. Even at 1350 fps with my 385 gr. RN, my little Marlin carbine punches through crossties at 75 yds. and I can still raise my arm at the end of the day.

Wade

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303carbine
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Posted: May 04 2010 at 10:01am | IP Logged Quote 303carbine

I use 45 grains of IMR 4198 under a 420 gc cast bullet for a chronograph reading of 1935 fps.
The rifle is a Browning B78 in 45-70, of course the steel crescent buttplate makes things interesting.............
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STCM(SW)
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Posted: May 04 2010 at 6:43pm | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

"The rifle is a Browning B78 in 45-70, of course the steel crescent buttplate makes things interesting............. "

Yea, thats why my Ruger #3 has a #1 stock with a Limbsaver on it.....

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puke
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Posted: May 04 2010 at 6:52pm | IP Logged Quote puke

I've never cast my own bullets (yet).
I also have never installed gas checks.
44mag and 454 are both what I have that have a case similar to the 45-70, and I mostly either use standard jacketed fn bullets,. or cast fn ones. But anytime gas checks have been involved, it's because they came pre-installed on"kieth" type bullets. (Although a couple of the checks had fallen off before they were even pulled out of the box...is this normal?). I think these bullets are sierra bullets.

The lyman manual does use low pressures, and they usually list the pressures, so this is not necesssarily my opinion only, this is repeating their conclusion.

I have not found an explanation as to why Lyman uses low pressures rather than listing higher loadings..or giving an explanation as to why you shouldn't go to higher loadings.......although I am starting to think it might just be because it's not common for people to care to push a 400 grain lead bullet very fast due to it's "adequecy" at about any velocity. I used to think their lower charges were due to leading,...but there are enough differing opinions on that one that I believe that is not the reason.

When things get to the point where you should use a dacron wad or a filler...that makes me a little nervous.
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puke
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Posted: May 04 2010 at 7:49pm | IP Logged Quote puke

OK,
Lyman says (for a winchester or marlin lever)

max for a 400 grain bullet...
   imr 4198 is32.3 grains at 25.4k pressure
max for a 420 grain bullet
   imr 4198 is 41.5. grains at 28k pressure

This is weird. I know nothing is ever linear when reloading, but this is odd.

They do not list a 405 gr. bullet.
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Posted: May 04 2010 at 8:26pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

The dacron is something to keep the powder next to the primer and restrict the powder from going toward the bullet end. With such a large case, the powder needs to either fill, or nearly fill, the interior to prevent an unwanted detenation. If a fast burning powder is allowed to reach forward in this large case you will run the risk of an explosion within the case. This can be a real threat to the weapon and you. I load with various powders and if fast burning types are used you can rest assurred that the dacron wad is in place.

Depending on the design of the projectile a 400 and a 405 can be looked upon as interchangable. If the bullet length is similar and the bearing surface are alike you have no real difference in their use. If the bearing surface of one is much more than the other then you must make adjustments. Contact of the metal moving through the bore is where you must take considerations.

I regularly use 2400 as a primary powder and will use IMR 3031 or Reloader 7 for higher loads. If the case is under what I feel to be filled to a safe limit, the wad goes in to keep the powder in check. Bear in mind that the use of this material will increase chamber pressure by as much as 2,000 psi. In a weaker weapon this can mean a lot!

So, after all is said and done, the thing that I feel you must pay close attention is that of pressure v.s. weapon tolerance and the fact that this case is quite large and will not bear up to excessive "magnum" attempts. If one needs a super large weapon to dispatch huge beasts, then go and get a .458 Win Mag. and be done with it. Otherwise work within the limits of your weapon and develope loads that are safe and proven to be dedacated stoppers in their own right.

Off the soapbox now and going to sleep. Best of luck in you quest.

Wade

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