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Stupid
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Posted: June 09 2010 at 8:42pm | IP Logged Quote Stupid

Does anybody use Trail Boss for .45 ACP 230GR RN? What's the weight of the powder you use?

I've been using 5.2 gr but I see IMR site is saying 4.5 gr for 15,000 CUP pressure. I am wondering if it's too high. This is for a 3 inch 1911 pistol.

Would you guys think it's still safe to continue using 5.2 gr?

The pressure limit for .45 is 21000 psi which translates to 25660 CUP. So technically, there's 10000 CUP to go.

I also read this post: http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10614&PN=1


Edited by Stupid on June 09 2010 at 8:42pm
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adirondakjack
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Posted: June 09 2010 at 9:07pm | IP Logged Quote adirondakjack

I think yer fine. I ran 5 grains with a MUCH heavier bullet and saw very little pressure indications.
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lovesrugers
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Posted: June 09 2010 at 10:26pm | IP Logged Quote lovesrugers

First off welcome to the forum. ,

Now where did you get the info that the 45 Acp has a cup limit of 25,560 or that 21,000 psi translates to 25,660 cup? The 45 Acp has a cup pressure limit of 19,900.
Ok I see you used Denton Bramwell's formula for conversion. Keep in mind his first formula was developed and intended for use with much higher pressure cartridges. The lower limit he used to derive that formula was 28,000 cup/psi because that is what he was limited to. He specifically states in his writing that his ANSI formula is invalid at handgun pressures. I prefer to use his Cip conversion formula for all Cup to psi or psi to Cup conversions because of the larger data sets. Using it shows 21,000 psi is 19,689.6 cup.

So yeah you are most likely hot. How hot I do not know but keep in mind low pressure cartridges like the 45 acp very rarely show any pressure signs before they let go.

Jerry


Edited by lovesrugers on June 09 2010 at 10:57pm
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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 10 2010 at 5:22am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Welcome to the forum, aaaah, Stupid. Feels kinda insulting to call you that by the way....

I've been running a series of tests on my own with TB and have found that for the most part it is safe to use in just about anything, however, there are always exceptions. This stuff was designed for the cowboy action crowd and does, in most cases, very well in limiting the amount of powder you can cram into large old BP days type cases. That said, it does hit a peak in several as well.

So if you can keep it a bit lighter, I'd do it. Sounds like you're using a bit much for such a small weapon. I know this powder does hit it's "hot side" as you near the max in such rounds like the .45ACP. Bear in mind that again this powder was designed for the guys that are part-time loaders, and as such, will often not go into the study of ballistics as the full-time handloader. It was made so the rookie loader won't dump two charges into a single case and cause harm to him and his weapon.

I use this powder in my .45-70 as a plinker/light target load, and with cast rounds in .308 Win for the same purpose. Have not tried it in .38's as I'm from the old school and use Unique and other powders like it.

Good luck with your loads with the TB. Let us know how well it performs with you weapon. We've got a bunch of guys and gals here that have years in this adventure and if there's a problem, there's someone that has the answer!
By the way, I still feel bad calling you "Stupid", but you called it I guess....
Wade

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Stupid
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Posted: June 10 2010 at 7:04pm | IP Logged Quote Stupid

The thing is that I have a few hundreds rounds made with 5.2 gr TB and I shot about 100 of them already. Seems great so far.

I am not sure if I drop it to 4.5 gr, it would still cycle the gun properly.
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Stupid
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Posted: June 10 2010 at 7:05pm | IP Logged Quote Stupid

Calling me stupid is totally cool as I am known as stupid. :-)
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Stupid
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Posted: June 10 2010 at 7:10pm | IP Logged Quote Stupid

Apparently this gentlemen in this link used 5.4 gr of TB.

Trail Boss for 45 ACP
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Stupid
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Posted: June 10 2010 at 7:51pm | IP Logged Quote Stupid

One more question. When I look at Hodgdon's database, it shows 4.5 gr as max with pressure at 15,100CUP. What's the reason that I cannot go higher since the .45 ACP's pressure can be as high as 19,600CUP?

Is it because of compression of the powder that would produce unexpected result?
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lovesrugers
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Posted: June 10 2010 at 8:29pm | IP Logged Quote lovesrugers

Just because you see someone get away with something doesn't make it safe.

Stupid wrote:
One more question. When I look at Hodgdon's database, it shows 4.5 gr as max with pressure at 15,100CUP. What's the reason that I cannot go higher since the .45 ACP's pressure can be as high as 19,600CUP?

Is it because of compression of the powder that would produce unexpected result?


This question has many answers with the most common one being the lawyers got to the data and lowered it. In most cases the actual answer, especially with faster burning powders like Trail Boss, is that going beyond that charge weight produces pressure spikes that exceed the specs for the cartridge. In general these pressure spikes will not add anything to the velocity of the bullet but they will be exerting more pressure on the gun.

Don't worry you are not the first person to say hey the max load for this powder is only producing x pressure but the limit is y pressure so I can go further. In fact one of the loading manuals I have on hand, can't remember which one at the moment, removed its pressure data for just this reason and stated so in the manual.

Jerry
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lovesrugers
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Posted: June 10 2010 at 8:41pm | IP Logged Quote lovesrugers

Oh yeah, I just wanted to point out that the thread you are referencing was started over 4 years ago. At that time Trailboss was a new powder and there was very little if any data available for most cartridges. Since that time Hodgdon has published data for it.

Also I want to point out the large variance in the gathered data for the .45 Acp at that charge weight with the original poster finding it to much. I am betting the reason for this large variance is they pushed Trailboss beyond what it should have been pushed to.

Jerry
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adirondakjack
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Posted: June 10 2010 at 9:22pm | IP Logged Quote adirondakjack

It should perhaps be noted that especially in short cases like ACP, OAL, or more correctly, the case capacity available under the bullet is critical when using ANY fast powder at near max loads. trail Boss is bulky, but it IS fast and when OAL is reduced or charges increased too much, gets rather frisky....

4.5 may be tops at one OAL, and 5.2 may work at a longer OAL, given the same bullet.....
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lovesrugers
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Posted: June 10 2010 at 9:47pm | IP Logged Quote lovesrugers

Adirondakjack has a very valid point with what he stated.

Jerry
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Bongo Boy
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Posted: June 11 2010 at 9:42pm | IP Logged Quote Bongo Boy

I can't offer anything too useful, but since there's so little data out there on TB with 45 ACP, I'll just say I tried two loads. One was 3.6gr Trail Boss with a 200 gr lead bullet (little to no utility, extremely high chuckle factor), and the other was 4.5 gr with the same RNFP bullet. My only notes are "fun entertainment load smoky".

I burned up a 9 oz bottle that way and that was end of the trail for me with Trail Boss because it was basically impossible to count on it metering within 25% from drop to drop. I would say questionable metering for any normal powder measures in the less than 10 gr range, and in the 4-5gr range, a complete dice roll.
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Stupid
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Posted: June 12 2010 at 12:05pm | IP Logged Quote Stupid

Thank you so much guys. Just an update. I dropped charge down to 4.2 gr and it got a LOT softer.

Now I have to disassemble the 100 rounds loaded with 5.2 grain. That's going to be a lot of fun.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 13 2010 at 4:31am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Lowering your load I think was a wise choice. As stated earlier about metering in a powder measure, I've found that TB will bridge in my old Lyman #55. Glad that the Knocker device is on this measure. If I didn't use it to tap the charge, I'll get some powder that will hang in the drop tube. Not fun. Also TB is very "static" and will cling to plastic inside the measure. I live in a very humid part of east Texas and even here it will stick to stuff!

Glad you're having fun with this powder. It does have its place and is very clean burning. As I said before, there are folks here in this forum that have years of loading time and know tons about this business. I've been loading my own for 40 years and once was a class 6 ammo mfg., but I learn so much from these fine gentlemen and ladies everyday! So stick close and we'll both will get smarter by looking in on what we have here to offer.

Wade

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