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JimH
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Posted: December 15 2004 at 10:53am | IP Logged Quote JimH

Greetings all. I serched through the loadata section and did not find any information from real revolvers, so I thought I would ask here.

I have been trying to get some time to work up a good defense load for 2" and 3" revolvers in .38 Spl. using the new Speer 135 and 147 gold dots.

While I can get the ballistics I want with Tite-group, I am a bit hesitant to adopt a load that fills so little of the case (my main fear is my own ineptness in that I might just not notice a double charge when I start loading in quantity).

My old favorite is SR-4756 but I was just wondering if Longshot was not about right for a charge that would become obvious is double-charged.

I don't see much on it in the .38 from any of the manuals. Has anyone used it?

BTW, my Tite-group load goes way over their recommendation for even +P loads but the pressure signs and case expansion show less than factory +P pressures...not sure what to think about that?

Onward,
Jim
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JohnK
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Posted: December 15 2004 at 11:02am | IP Logged Quote JohnK

I've had a pound of it for a couple months and haven't gotten around to trying it yet. I wonder if it's a bit on the slow side for 2" revolvers, maybe not though. I can check the Hodgdon manual tonight to see if they have much data with Longshot and the 38 Special.

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JimH
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Posted: December 15 2004 at 11:20am | IP Logged Quote JimH

JohnK wrote:
I've had a pound of it for a couple months and haven't gotten around to trying it yet. I wonder if it's a bit on the slow side for 2" revolvers, maybe not though. I can check the Hodgdon manual tonight to see if they have much data with Longshot and the 38 Special.


John;
as to speed, I harken back to the Speer #8 manual which says that what is most efficient in a long barrel is most effecient in a 2"...their best loads for snubbies were with 2400, H110 and 4756 (which is slower than it would appear due to bulk).

I would indeed use 2400 but I just don't like all the noise and flash...but I may decide to put up with it.

I am thinking longshot is somewhere around HS6 or BlueDot but I could be off???

As an aside (I have a way of traveling way off course) when I carried a Revolver as a duty gun back in the dark ages, one of the places required ammunition to be .38 Spl and either 125 or 158 grains. They did not forbid the weapon from being chambered in .357 nor did they forbid handloads.

My duty load pushed a 158 Remington JHP to 1350 fps with Blue Dot in a +P .38 case....but I sure would not have wanted to get them mixed up with the stuff in my Cheif Special! I color coded the primers and fortunately never did make the mistake.

Onward,
Jim
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lovesrugers
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Posted: December 15 2004 at 12:59pm | IP Logged Quote lovesrugers

Jim, check out speers website for the load data you are looking for. It is on their until they come out with the speer 14 reloading manual. Hope this helps a little bit.

Speer Reload Data
Jerry
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JimH
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Posted: December 15 2004 at 6:19pm | IP Logged Quote JimH

lovesrugers wrote:
Jim, check out speers website for the load data you are looking for. It is on their until they come out with the speer 14 reloading manual. Hope this helps a little bit.

Speer Reload Data
Jerry


Thanks Jerry but checked that last week (and again just now, in case they updated) but no Longshot data.

This afternoon I ran some comparisons in the Hornady handbook on shotguns and found that with the same componenets in 12 ga that Longshot is close enough to HS6 to be viable if I start just a bit low.

Also got to chrono and check the P.O.I. with the Tite-group loads. While my load is a bit over the manual it shows no signs of excess pressure nor undue muzzleblast. It gave 920 fps with the 147 in the 1 7/8" Chief and 940 in the 2 1/4" 640. Unfortunately the load hit about 2" left at 25 yards in 3 of the four fixed sighted guns I tried it in.

Looks like I need to try another powder.

Thanks again!
Best regards,
Jim
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JohnK
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Posted: December 15 2004 at 6:46pm | IP Logged Quote JohnK

Hodgdon has several +P loads listed, velocities are from a 7.7" barrel. It doesn't say, but I'd guess that's the pressure barrel they used to get the pressures too. You might be disapointed with the velocity, they barrely broke 1000 fps with the 146gr JHP even with the long barrel. It can't hurt to try them though.

I've added those loads to the database.

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lvl1trauma
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Posted: December 15 2004 at 6:57pm | IP Logged Quote lvl1trauma

The way I look at it is Tightgroup is pretty fast and Longshot is a pretty slow as far as pistol powders go. My guess is that the Longshot is not going to be the best choice in the shorter barrel gun with the .38's. Might want to try something midrange like Power Pistol, Universal, or Unique before the Longshot unless that is the only one you have available. Think about it. There's probably a reason the major manufacturers haven't listed it.

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JimH
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Posted: December 15 2004 at 7:39pm | IP Logged Quote JimH

lvl1trauma wrote:
The way I look at it is Tightgroup is pretty fast and Longshot is a pretty slow as far as pistol powders go. My guess is that the Longshot is not going to be the best choice in the shorter barrel gun with the .38's. Might want to try something midrange like Power Pistol, Universal, or Unique before the Longshot unless that is the only one you have available. Think about it. There's probably a reason the major manufacturers haven't listed it.

Lvl1trauma


I have all of those and I do think they are in the right range. I don't work up new loads with Unique any more...too dirty and it flashes way to much for defense loads (great efficiency for hunting loads which you don't shoot many of).

Probably I should just stick with 4756 which works better than any other powder I have tried thus far in .38 +P+ loads for the 2" Although Blue Dot, 2400 and H110 get good velocity but have high flash. Not that my 140 - 145 gr. load with 4756 is exactly low flash it drives an XTP or Silver-Tip to over 1100 fps from a M-36.


I just wanted a newer powder as they are more avaialble and they tend to burn cleaner. I think Power Pistol might be a good possibility. Universal Clays should be in that range also and it burns extremely clean, but it does not meter as well as the flattend ball powders.

The curious thing about 4756 is that Sierra lists it at two seperate burning rates (one around Unique and one around 630 I think - it is in the first Sierra manual IIRC). I can understand the confusion... a full charge in either the .38 or the .44 Magnum results in a powder measure setting the same as with 2400 though the weight is only about 68%.

Life is so complicated
Thanks!
Jim
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JimH
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Posted: December 15 2004 at 7:42pm | IP Logged Quote JimH

Forgot to mention. The reason I got the Longshot in the first place is that it is listed as one of the most efficient powders in .460 Roland, where case capacity is at a premium.

In the back of my mind, most of the powders that work in the short .45 case seem to work in the .38 as well.

Onward,
Jim
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ramone
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Posted: December 19 2004 at 9:53am | IP Logged Quote ramone

Jim,

I too have developed some very hot and good 38spl loads using SR4756, and is still my favorite powder for that cartridge. In fact, the Speer #8 manual you refer to states that it is one of the best for 38.

However, later versions of the Speer manual shows greatly reduced loads using SR4756. I wrote Omark and asked if perhaps this was a mistake, as my loads were way over the new maximums listed in the newer manuals.
Their response was that with newer pressure measuring techniques, they found some serious "inconsistencies" with that powder, and recommended that data from older manuals not be used.

I worked up my loads again, and found no problem, so I continue to use them, but I shoot them in the Taurus
mod 605, which is a 2" .357mag with no problems. I would be a little reluctant to use them in most 38spl guns.

Just food for thought. You may want to inquire with Speer on your own, as my inquiry was several years ago.

Ramone



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JimH
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Posted: December 21 2004 at 6:25am | IP Logged Quote JimH

Ramone;
Your experience and thoughts mirror mine.

I had assumed the part about pressure testing. The speer #8 manual was using the experience of thier load developers and observing routine pressure signs like primers, case expansion and extraction (which is related to expansion).

While I am pretty confident with my 4756 loads, since fired cases will fall out without using the extractor, I have run into this erratic behavior that I think they are referring to.

In my case it is lot to lot. I have purchased several 8 lb kegs of this stuff over the years and have found that each one need to be worked up carefully as some will give the same velocity with as much as one full grain less (which makes the Speer load a pretty dangerous overload in a J-frame). So I simply lable my various lots with a simple code.

This certainly illustrates the necessity for never starting out with a load that is not listed in modern manuals and the need for a chronograph.

I sure wish the various manual publishers would standardize on a vented "real world" test barrel for revolvers so we could easily compare their data

Thanks for the input!
Cordially,
Jim
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ramone
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Posted: December 21 2004 at 3:29pm | IP Logged Quote ramone

Jim,

You're right about the various methods used by the different loading manuals. One would think they would use "real world" guns with real B/C gaps to arrive at pressure and velocity readings. But the way it is, it really points out the importance of working up loads and watching for danger signs.

I never did understand the "primer appearance" as a good sign for excessive pressure. When the same primer is used in a magnum, at 35000+psi,as well as in a Spl.
(38, 44, etc.) how could the primer be a good indicator of excessive pressure in the lower pressure round. So it really behoves one to look at a number of things before it can be considered a safe round. I even consider the amount of "sting" felt in my hand as a sign of too much pressure. Not recoil, but sting.

Sounds weird, but it makes me feel a bit better.

Ramone.

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