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Subject Topic: Medium 45 Colt load for pistol & carbine Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Sharps1874
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Posted: November 20 2005 at 6:58pm | IP Logged Quote Sharps1874

I have a Uberti SAA clone and an EMF 1892 carbine clone, both in 45 Colt. I want to work up a good load to use in both. I have read a number of posts and feel comfortable in loading to about 21,000 CUP. The powders that I am considering are H110, H4227 & H4198. Leaning more towards the first two. I will be loading a 255 grain, water quenched WW RNFP bullet.

My question is, could someone give me a decent starting and likely max loads for these?

Edited by Sharps1874 on November 20 2005 at 7:00pm
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Leftoverdj
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Posted: November 21 2005 at 5:32am | IP Logged Quote Leftoverdj

H4198 is way too slow. Forget that one. I personally would not shoot any H110 loads in a Uberti. Its minimum working pressure is too high.

H4227 will work in the 16-18 grain range. I use 7.5 to 8.0 grains of Unique or Universial with 255 cast for about the same results.

No need to waterquench. Aircooled WW works perfectly at .45 Colt pressures.
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J Miller
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Posted: November 21 2005 at 6:20am | IP Logged Quote J Miller

The Uberti is the week link to this chain. Holding to it's pressure limits you might try 9.0grs Unique, or 9.5 IMR 800X. There are a lot of good loads in the data section here, and John Taffins favorite loads are in the home page too.

Joe
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CBRick
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Posted: November 21 2005 at 4:20pm | IP Logged Quote CBRick

Sharps1874, welcome to the board.

Dido Leftoverdj, H110 is a great powder in full power loads. Not something you want in a Uberti SAA. Reduced H110 loads are very inconsistent and accuracy generally poor.

I have been doing some experimenting with lite loads in a Marlin 357 using the new IMR Trail Boss powder. Early tests are very promising. I don't have a 45 Colt to test this powder in but this is the cartridge it's made for. Could well be worth the effort. From my tests so far, IMR is correct, you can't get enough of this powder in the case to get in trouble with pressure. Something your Uberti will thank you for.

This is the link to the IMR web page on Trail Boss load data.

Hope this helps.

Rick

Edited by CBRick on November 21 2005 at 4:28pm
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drinks
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Posted: November 21 2005 at 6:10pm | IP Logged Quote drinks

Unique/Universal, HS-6, Herco are good loads for the .38-40, .44-40, .44sp and .45 Colt, in Colt 73s, Sphagetti 73s, Winchester 73s and the other strength challenged pistols and rifles.
I have had a plinking load for my '92, .44-40 , duplicating the factory load, 1220fps, of Herco, about 9 gr, for 40 years.
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CBRick
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Posted: November 21 2005 at 6:48pm | IP Logged Quote CBRick

I forgot to mention in above post. In July 05 the "Rifleman" did a feature story on this powder. It's what got me playing around with it.

Rick
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Sharps1874
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Posted: November 21 2005 at 6:53pm | IP Logged Quote Sharps1874

Thank you all for the information and welcome.

Joe,

Am I correct in reading some of your previous posts that the Uberti "should" be able to handle 45ACP pressures? (21,000 for the 45ACP vs 14,000 for the 45 Colt) I understand that it cannot take full house Ruger loads, but the loads here listed seem like standard SAAMI loads for the 45 Colt. I am not looking for an elephant load, just something a bit more stout than standard SAAMI loads and with a powder that will work well in both the carbine and pistol.

Rick,

I am looking at the data for the Colt for the Trailboss and the heaviest load listed for a 250 grain bullet is 5.8 grains. Have you seen/heard anyone playing with heavier loads?

Edited by Sharps1874 on November 21 2005 at 7:03pm
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CBRick
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Posted: November 21 2005 at 7:29pm | IP Logged Quote CBRick

Sharps1874,

IMR lists 4.2 gr. in a 10 inch 357 revolver with a 158 gr bullet for 865 fps. I started out with 4.4 gr & a 140 gr SWCPB in a Marlin 357 looking for a lite 100 meter plinking load. 4.4 gr gave 970 fps, was about 90% load density, shot 3 1/2 inch groups @ 100 meters, 12 standard deviation with 45 fps extreme spread (15 shot chrono test). It showed no pressure at all and was like shooting a 22 rimfire rifle.

Next test I tried 4.0 gr. The .4 gr reduction reduced velocity 19 fps, didn't change the SD or Extreme spread but it did double the group size. Next test I'll load 4.8 gr and see what this does for groups. 4.8 gr should be right at 100% load density without compressing the charge.

The Rifleman article said that you can't get enough Trail Boss in the case to get into trouble with pressure and from my tests so far, I'd say they are right.

Rick
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Sharps1874
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Posted: November 21 2005 at 7:37pm | IP Logged Quote Sharps1874

I would love to hear of some experiments on loads with the Colt. 5.8 grains (their max suggested load) would be about 25% load density.

Edited by Sharps1874 on November 21 2005 at 7:38pm
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CBRick
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Posted: November 21 2005 at 8:45pm | IP Logged Quote CBRick

Sharps1874,

No, No. 16.0 gr of H110 in the 357 isn't 100% load density. With Trail Boss 4.8 gr IS. When I reduced the charge from 4.4 gr to 4.0 gr that was about 15% of the capacity.

I don't have a 45 Colt case but I do have a 454 case. 9.0 gr fills the 454 case to the bottom of a 240 gr Sierra bullet. I just poured the powder to check it out.

5.8 gr (nearly 6.0 gr and only 3 gr less than your 5.8) would have to be 80 to 85% capacity or better in a 45 Colt depending on the bullet. 25% density would mean that it would hold 23.2 grains.

This stuff is incredibly bulky, it looks like little Cherrios. That's it's purpose, it's what they made it for. A "full" case with lower pressure. You should be able to get your 250 gr bullet near 800 fps while being easy on you and your new revolver. Your post said "medium load", not knock down the barn door.

Rick

Edited by CBRick on November 21 2005 at 9:25pm
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J Miller
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 7:36am | IP Logged Quote J Miller

Sharps1874

Quote:
Joe,

Am I correct in reading some of your previous posts that the Uberti "should" be able to handle 45ACP pressures? (21,000 for the 45ACP vs 14,000 for the 45 Colt) I understand that it cannot take full house Ruger loads, but the loads here listed seem like standard SAAMI loads for the 45 Colt. I am not looking for an elephant load, just something a bit more stout than standard SAAMI loads and with a powder that will work well in both the carbine and pistol.


Yes you have read my posts correctly. However there is some confusion across the board about Unique. Old vs New, Hercules vs Alliant, ect ect. Also some manuals say 8.0grs is max with a 250-255gr bullet, while others go all the way to 9.5grs with a 250.
So while it isn't all the way up to 21K psi, 9.0 grains of Unique is still possibly a bit over SAAMIs 14K psi level for the .45 Colt.
Myself and others still recomend this load because it is such a good one, and it does stand in the middle between the factory type loads and the +P loads.

Another powder I'm experimenting with is BlueDot. I tried some two weekends ago and it seemed to be just a step up from standard.
But I don't know what kind of pressure it runs.
According to the data here on the forums data base, 13.5 grs of BlueDot will produce 1000fps from a 5" S&W 25-7.

Here is the actual data sections:

Standard pressure with a couple of BlueDot loads;
,45 Colt Standard Data

The 13.5 grs BlueDot load here. It's the 6th one down.

JohnK says it is within the ability of the new S&Ws to handle it. I think the new S&Ws are just a bit stronger than the Colts and Colt copies. So I'm not sure it would be good to use it much through an Uberti.
Maybe drop it down to the 11.5 grs load as shown in the standard data section and work up from there.

Joe
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Sharps1874
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 4:26pm | IP Logged Quote Sharps1874

Joe, thank you for the replies. That helps a great deal. I picked up a pound of Unique today and will start experimenting. Do you have an idea what a max safe load would be for the Uberti? I am thinking of starting at 8.7 and work up. I have seen the same data ranging from 8.5 to 10.5 as max.

Last question, is there a disavantage to using water quenched WW at these pressures as opposed to air cooled?
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J Miller
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 4:51pm | IP Logged Quote J Miller

Sharps1874,

As I said, I'd stop at 9.0grs. That is a pretty good load.

At the pressures the Uberti can use, water quenching is in my opinion a waste of time.
The original .45 Colt bullet alloy was 20 to 1 lead, tin.
About the same hardness as unaltered wheel weights. I shot thousands of my own and other bullets at this hardness with great results.

Joe
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CBRick
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 5:34pm | IP Logged Quote CBRick

Sharps1874 wrote:
is there a disavantage to using water quenched WW at these pressures as opposed to air cooled?


Yes, there is a disadvantage. WW will be roughly 11 BHN as cast but quenched they will be in the range of 18 BHN. If the bullet is too hard for the pressure your shooting it at the base will not obturate and seal the bore properly. This can cause leading, usually on the trailing edge of the rifling. A simple "rough" guide to know how hard a bullet should be is the following formula:

Multiply the bulletts BHN by 1422. 11 BHN should need a minumum working pressure of at least 15,600. A bullet of 18 BHN should need a minimum working pressure of 25,500.

J Miller is correct, cast them, lube them, shoot them. WW as cast is an ideal alloy for this type of shooting. You might want to add a bit of tin to the melt. Tin reduces the surface tension of lead alloys allowing it to flow much better and fill out the mould better.

Rick
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One Bullet Dan
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Posted: November 27 2005 at 1:59pm | IP Logged Quote One Bullet Dan

4.4 grains of Clays is a favorite plinkin` round for me!

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CBRick
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Posted: November 29 2005 at 1:15pm | IP Logged Quote CBRick

One bullet,

What is "NAHC". Your from "The Great State of Michigan" so it's not the Michigan Rifle & Pistol Assoc.

I am an NRA Benefactor Member and CRPA Life Member (California Rifle & Pistol Assoc.) but NAHC has me curious.

Thanks

Rick
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One Bullet Dan
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Posted: November 29 2005 at 11:20pm | IP Logged Quote One Bullet Dan

It stands for, "North American Hunting Club". Not a bad group to belong to. The mag they put out is worth the cost of membership. Back when I was doing the work thing, I never had much time for hunting; now that I`m retired (at the ripe old age of fifty), I plan on pursuing it with gusto!

I`ll be joining you in the benefactor ranks as soon as Xmas rolls around. Mrs. Bullet stole the paperwork, so I know what she`s got planed. I have to practice looking surprised.

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