Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  

Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc
Long Guns
 Handloads.Com Forum : Long Guns
Subject Topic: 12GA Rifle From Hell Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
hubel458
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2003
Posts: 491
Online Status: Offline
Posted: January 06 2017 at 6:48pm | IP Logged Quote hubel458

Our friend Brian from the far north went to Africa with
his 24ga FH he did in
a NEF break action and got 3 nice buffs with it. Good
job.


Our 585HE, 700HE and the great 12ga FH are now in the new
COTW book
published in Oct, now out for sale,




We now have our target 375 HE cartridge, made by necking
down our 585 HE.
The others couldn't make enough 375s, so we started our
own. It has different
shoulder taper, length, neck length, improved over the
others...Got a bunch
guys doing it, most into the 2 mile shooting venues,
We're making cases,
testing, reamer prints at reamer guys, we are getting
guys going. The 2 mile
shoot last year really got the interest booming for 375
necked from our case,

Here's how, size and seat 375 HE, one simple die, a 1"
die, no huge dies needed
A die we can make with resize reamer from reamer guy, a
regular die body,then
pass on to the next guy, one reamer can make whole bunch
of dies for folks.

I do primer work separate, not in the press. SO First
with lock ring set, I size cases.

When coming back out of dies with case, we notice the
case still well centered,
held straight, when it is down as far as the length of
the 375 HE neck... IE
the sides and shoulder corner still supported tight.

So we put washer or another lock ring on, same thickness
as neck length,
below original lock ring, screw down tight tight in
press,

Dies had a 5/8 x 24 thread in top, had powder fill
bushing and other stuff same thread,
reamed out from bottom to set bullet height, with ram,
case,and bullet up,

After priming, loading in the powder charge, we
carefully start(boat tail makes it easy)
bullet in case by hand, slide up in die, into holder,
raise ram to to top, bullet seated
perfect. Die can have different thread in top as long as
big enough to hold seating
bushing of some kind , that can be made from many items.

These target bullets held in by strong neck tension, no
crimping needed, and notice
bullet point will get no marks or dents, fast, easy, no
380-500 buck special dies.
Bushing centering bullet on ogive is very accurate.

OVER 900 375HE cases piled behind presses getting done.
About 600 on another
bench nearly ready. Small batches in shelves.And we will
do more.

All 375 info, prints, specs, pictures, load data, etc, is
public domain, worldwide,
for any target, hunting, etc, use..Ed


Back to Top View hubel458's Profile Search for other posts by hubel458
 
hubel458
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2003
Posts: 491
Online Status: Offline
Posted: February 01 2017 at 3:21am | IP Logged Quote hubel458

Here is picture of one of 3 buffs our guy from Canada
got in

Africa with our 24ga FH he did on a NEF, in 2nd picture








Here is the neck die setup, with insert stems/plugs for
the top that

are set in .020" steps to make our 375 HEs shown behind

from our 585HE cases. 900 cases behind and 600 on

another bench, mostly done, and 600 started elsewhere,

We also made a hydraulic form die, 375 HE test gun,
starting with

lighter bullets, for example got 340 gr to 3700,

Will test up to 400gr We will find top speeds and powders
needed

to get that, and have info where to get powders. Reamer
prints are

at reamer guys, all prints and info is public domain...
Ed

Back to Top View hubel458's Profile Search for other posts by hubel458
 
hubel458
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2003
Posts: 491
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 11 2017 at 6:28pm | IP Logged Quote hubel458

Picture of fellows at Vestals Gunsmithing test firing
585 HE

they built for a guy. They got 750 gr to almost 2800 from

ultra short barrel, not a full load . A regular barrel
would be

over 2900, 14000 ft lbs with full load..





Picture of our 375 HE cases, with little 378 WEA on left.

Middle case is with 330 gr, right case is 400gr bullet.




Here is picture of out 375HE testgun, in heavy t-hole
stock.

So far 340 gr to 3700 and 360gr 3600.




Next 416 HE target case, these run through the hydro-die,

test gun done,will complete testing soon, to confirm
specs.

When specs set, info will be sent to reamer guys

Soon will have 408 HE with specs set up also, for guys,

Smaller case 416s and 408s can be reamed out for

our bigger case .Ed


Back to Top View hubel458's Profile Search for other posts by hubel458
 
hubel458
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2003
Posts: 491
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 25 2017 at 1:16pm | IP Logged Quote hubel458

Here is picture of a brake on 12ga FH with real hot
loaded
hollowbase lead slug, brake needed more clearance
for the expanding slug.




Here is the before and after of 375 HE cases,    
2 on left necked, 2 on right formed in hydro die after
necking..

]

Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are
experimenting
with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR
case.
Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.
Holds over 280 gr ball powder under bullet. In the
picture,
1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 HE, 4th 378 WEA.

416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG
action,
470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target,
singleshot 416..
Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough
barrel
to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and srtill be
under 50 lbs.
A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit.



Here is picture of the 416 HSM fireformed once,
next to bmg case we make it from and as we
improve wildcatting process next few weeks
some specs may make small changes, now from
base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..





Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE
He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info.
We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted,
,
Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes also,
Questions, PM or email. ph 989-644-5228..

Here are final specs for 416 HE.
Length 3.32", belt diameter ,655", base dia .635" ,
length base to to shoulder 2.860" , 30 deg shoulder.Ed
Back to Top View hubel458's Profile Search for other posts by hubel458
 
hubel458
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2003
Posts: 491
Online Status: Offline
Posted: June 25 2017 at 6:33pm | IP Logged Quote hubel458

Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for
28ga and
410 ga and 32ga with brass cases and higher pressures
than plastic cases.
They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with
our 585 case in the action.Guys can get Magtech brass
cases or have
RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,
410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..



Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to
original
BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still
have
enough thickness in the sides to handle high pressure,
in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the
wildcatting
work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.
We have lots of 585s, 375HEs, 416 HEs, 408 HEs.....
And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.



Here's comparison of 416 target cases, 1st 416 HE,
have whole bunch.
Second is model of what I'd have made on medium
machine, if I could,
the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of 230gr..
Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by
wildcatting bmg
cases, And if had run long cases, make longer 375 HE
necking down 416 ..




Bryan Litz just recently shot 3 shot group at 2 miles
using Paul
Phillips heavy barreled, target rifle built by Lethal
Precision in
375 Lethal Mag(585HE necked down, very similiar to 375HE
)...
It grouped 17.5 inches tall by 22 inches wide.

Applied Ballistics shooter Mitch Fitzpatrick just hit 3
of 5 at 3520 yards,
weekend 10-13th at Valdina Ranch , west of San Antonio.
Also used the 375 LM case similar to our 375 HE
Great shooting at the 2017 World's Longest Shot
Challenge. Ed
Back to Top View hubel458's Profile Search for other posts by hubel458
 
hubel458
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2003
Posts: 491
Online Status: Offline
Posted: July 23 2017 at 1:27pm | IP Logged Quote hubel458

The 12ga FH case now is in the new COTW book on
last page in the wildcat section, I think page 324.
They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that   
case....


The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one,

has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture,

on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr..
Ed..




More info out now; short, fat cases sticking, pockets
not lasting as expected.
Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures
are bad case
proportions, too sharp of shoulders, too fast of
powders...........
and debth of the bullet into the powder space, as
shown in the picture below..
My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one,
in longer freebore....Ed.


Back to Top View hubel458's Profile Search for other posts by hubel458
 
hubel458
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2003
Posts: 491
Online Status: Offline
Posted: September 04 2017 at 12:06pm | IP Logged Quote hubel458

Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case
made from our 585 HE big belted case. Ed




Here is picture of 375 HE left, 416 HE next, 416 HSM
right..




Here, tentative specs, 416 HSM case we are doing from
bmg brass,





A 375 HE, with Lawton action, bunch being done with
those .....


Back to Top View hubel458's Profile Search for other posts by hubel458
 
USA Joe
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: October 29 2005
Location: Tucson Az
Posts: 1292
Online Status: Offline
Posted: September 04 2017 at 4:18pm | IP Logged Quote USA Joe

Outch on so many levels

__________________
Joe
Back to Top View USA Joe's Profile Search for other posts by USA Joe
 
hubel458
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2003
Posts: 491
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 09 2017 at 12:55am | IP Logged Quote hubel458

A 585 HE ...shot with moderate heavy load......

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t50.2886-
16/20404363_470558053312276_3772630570509533184_n.mp4


Here is a 375 HE target gun set up, by Asteroid
Precision...




Here is video of it being tested... And with a 350gr
bullet about 3450-3475,

bolt opened easily with one finger...And he's just
getting started

and is checking on better powder, Ed..



https://www.facebook.com/AsteroidPrecision/videos/2980311
33934093/?fref=gs&dti=321360231548869&hc_location=group
Back to Top View hubel458's Profile Search for other posts by hubel458
 
hubel458
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2003
Posts: 491
Online Status: Offline
Posted: November 10 2017 at 6:36pm | IP Logged Quote hubel458

Here is recap simple setup to get faster loads with 12ga
sabots

& slugs, Example using break actions...., reaming
chamber

in a 12ga break action to 3.5" with a 3.5" 12ga reamer,
that isn't

something needing special order, and use 3.5" plastic
cases , or

get 3.5" brass cases made. With mag shotgun primers and

our slower powder loads you can get a quarter more
speed,

which gives 50% more energy...


585 Hubel Express video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy load,
gun little light.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyS9zZ8ElJA


Another view of Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target
gun,




Here is our 416 HSM we are developing next to 416
Barrett, Ed


Back to Top View hubel458's Profile Search for other posts by hubel458
 
hubel458
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2003
Posts: 491
Online Status: Offline
Posted: January 11 2018 at 4:47pm | IP Logged Quote hubel458

Here in picture of the cases, are shown the steps in
making

our 416 HSM case, from BMG brass,, Ed




We might have a company that is doing a bolt gun with an
action

between BMG size and longer rifle actions used for 375
HE,

375 Lethal, and Cheytacs.. To use for our 416 HSM
without

having to do extreme rebating of the rim.


Here is picture of 620   416 hsm cases half done. Done on
cnc ,

that slimmed them down, cut new rim and extractor groove.

There are over 500 more at cnc getting done now, plus we
have

1000s more bmg cases we make them from, when needed..

This case is public domain and if anyone wants to make

them we can give the steps involved...Ed.

Back to Top View hubel458's Profile Search for other posts by hubel458
 
hubel458
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2003
Posts: 491
Online Status: Offline
Posted: February 12 2018 at 6:41am | IP Logged Quote hubel458

For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416
easier to get powders to work with, less problems ..
Maybe building a target gun,don't have 375 barrel all
ready, maybe go 416....

We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
CEB and others will have bullets...CEB will be doing
.416 in 450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr

Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as
585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer,
did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over
50k. They have about .042" total taper, .021" per
side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper
, twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k..

I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with
..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is
no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down
case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30.

And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to
thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or
more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our
585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually
hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180"
shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking..

And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means
to get them built, as we have
15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick
sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..



Back to Top View hubel458's Profile Search for other posts by hubel458
 
hubel458
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2003
Posts: 491
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 04 2018 at 7:36pm | IP Logged Quote hubel458

Here is a drawing depicting the layout of thick and thin
sided cases,
like my 585/375/416 HE thin sided ones and the thick one
in picture.

And my 585 case is not perfect, as where it transitions
from the
heavier corner to the side it isn't gradual, so case
separates there
shortening case life. There are others made that way
including brand X.
The dotted line is what it should be............



Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are
built thick sided and they
stick also for the folks, If a longer case with about 5
sq in of side surface sticks and
don't spring back, the coefficient of friction is about
.01 then the pull needed to move
it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases with normal
amount of slant to the sides.

Here is picture of six nyati and gibbs size cases
sectioned.. the5th one is present 585 HE
and 6th is thick sided version. 1st 600 OK which
essentially nyati basic case left straight, belt added



In the picture the nyati gma is one we built most of our
first 585s on. Before we had factory run.
Reworking made it in size that is my 585 HE, but that
brass had the sides of perfect thickness,
not too thick, but thin without sharp transition my new
factory 585s had, they last forever as 585s......

Fourth one is an older nyati case I used to make about
10 of my 585s from,had thin sides, heavy corner
and sharp transition from the corner, tested 20 years
ago, and they would separate after 4-6 hot loads
as 585s, my factory 585 with right powders, as a 585 will
get 10 hot loads, and necked down to
416/375 4- 6 hot loads, right powders used, Moderate 577
equivalent, factory 585 at least 20 loads..Ed.
Back to Top View hubel458's Profile Search for other posts by hubel458
 
hubel458
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2003
Posts: 491
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 21 2018 at 1:46pm | IP Logged Quote hubel458

Guy sent thick sided 375 case, next size base diameter
up from Nyati.He said,
'Yes I ran them in a ___________ rifle built by ____, the
best I
could get was 44000 psi, any more and they were stuck''

Big bore guys. other forums over the years related that
trex/african case in 585
size, thick sided cases, stuck when they loaded them over
45k psi.

Another just sent us, thick sided 375, long case, same
base OD as our 585 HE,
416 HE, 375 HE, and Mitch's 375 Lethal, and the thick
ones stuck over 45k psi.

Now you can fill those cases up, with ultra slow enough
powder so they won't
stick, but powder is too slow for max speed. Might get a
little more
speed, with thick sides case, but case got to be 4- 4.5
inches long..

. Anyone needing a sectioned case of the ones I made the
first of my 585s from,
contact me, if they want to get a general idea of what
case side thickness should
be, in Gibbs size cases on up to about trex and 375 VM
size case diameter.

Here is pic of our 585 based case next to brand X and
thick ones, both have
same sharp, thinner, corner, where transition from heavy
angled corner, to the
side, the carbide draw rod could easily be reshaped with
diamond wheel,
just by grinding off sharp transition corner. Then
sides would be perfect.., .




Here is picture of 416 HE in a Choate target/varmint
stock guy is doing,
using long action BSA U9 action.Setting in stock ready to
do bedding..Ed




Back to Top View hubel458's Profile Search for other posts by hubel458
 
hubel458
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2003
Posts: 491
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 19 2018 at 8:11pm | IP Logged Quote hubel458

Here is picture of thick 375 case sent to me, with thick
sided trex case, and our HE case,
The thick 375 case is .050" bigger OD base, but inside is
no bigger than HE cases..
These thick sided 375s stuck for the guy using them, when
loaded over 44,000 psi....



Got guys asking and doing it, to do 416 HSM case for
BMG actions, so leaving rim same,
as the original bmg rim, so will neck them, fire form
to the longer shoulder, like the others.
Base a little bigger, Shoulder same diameter, same 30
degree slant, neck will be same..

Inside of case still has close to same shape, volumne
within 3 % as ones we slimmed down more.
Some want to use bmg actions and can't wait for
intermediate actions, or already have bmg action.
And they are really getting interested in the complete
line of 416 CEB bullets now being done
clear up to 550 gr...

So there will be 3 versions, one for actions .750" bolt,
one for .800-.850" bolt,
And one for bigger bmg bolts. The ones for BMG called 416
HSM2 ..

Here is   416 HSM guy working in a Montana PH, in a
heavy thumbhole target stock. Ed



Back to Top View hubel458's Profile Search for other posts by hubel458
 
hubel458
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2003
Posts: 491
Online Status: Offline
Posted: May 10 2018 at 5:27pm | IP Logged Quote hubel458

Here is sectioned 585 HE case in the middle, we first
made from

another case, years ago before we had factory run of
brass and

it had perfect thickness on the sides and inside
corrner.

We could fire them many times without sides thinning..

First case is factory run of our 585 HE, 3rd is case
that is too

thick of sides and sticks at high pressures..



Pic of our factory run cases necked down to 375 and
fired 4 times

at high pressure on the right, with unfired case on the
left.

Our case is not perfect but does work...Ed

Back to Top View hubel458's Profile Search for other posts by hubel458
 
hubel458
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2003
Posts: 491
Online Status: Offline
Posted: July 09 2018 at 5:51pm | IP Logged Quote hubel458

About 416 cal bullets............

The heaviest 550 gr for Extreme ELR probably be best 8
to 1 twist , in 416 caliber bullet,
and 520 gr 9.5 to 1, and 470gr 10 to one, Some barrels I
picked up are 10 to 1.......

Now a novel idea is to lighten rear of bullet with small
shallow hole drilled in base, might do better
long range.which would allow 10 to one barrel stabilize
the heavier 550 gr bullets for ELR.
Making bullet nose heavier makes it more stable in
flight, needing less spin,
like our hollow base 585 cal minie bullets only need 48
to 1 twist, or less
while out regular 585 bullets need about 24 to 1 to
stabilise them..............

The winner of the King Of 2 Mile shoot last week was
using 416 Barrett with a 1 to 10
twist, with a 500 gr CEB Lazer bullet, ...Robert
Brantley, with Manners Stocks....

Paul Philips was third with a 416...

GOOD NEWS-- There is now an importer and seller of our
585 HE brass getting set up here,
in US, hopefully will be in stock, few weeks........   
http://bertrambrass.com .. .. Caleb Hallet..

Have got another intermediate size action besides the
Montana PH our guys working on,
to do speed testingwith. It is big long REM style action
that can take our 416 HSM, ED
Back to Top View hubel458's Profile Search for other posts by hubel458
 

Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc

If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login
If you are not already registered you must first register

<< Prev Page of 25
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum

Powered by Web Wiz Forums version
Copyright ©2001-2008 Web Wiz Guide

This page was generated in 0.1250 seconds.