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JohnK
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| Posted: May 04 2004 at 9:05am | IP Logged
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Glen Fryxell has been kind enough to write another article for us, this time about the Keith 45 SWC bullet and some of the changes it's gone through over the years. A very interesting article if you like true Keith bullets.
The .45 Keith SWC
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Ranch 13
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| Posted: May 04 2004 at 10:32am | IP Logged
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Interesting article. The last paragraph about how things have changed since 1928,but how well that flatfaced slug works is so very true.
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J Miller
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| Posted: May 04 2004 at 11:23am | IP Logged
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Very interesting article. Makes me wish I had done more reading and research 30 years ago. I'd love to have one of those early Ideal 454424 molds.
Joe
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LAH
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| Posted: May 09 2004 at 2:37pm | IP Logged
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Glenn does very good work on cast bullet mouolds and he should be required reading for the cast bullet lover. I first cast for the 45 Colt in 1975. I used the RCBS 45-255-SWC. This is a very good bullet and I shot it for years. The best I remember, a friend let this mould slip from his hand to a concrete floor and it's not cast the same since.
I've never cast with the Lyman 454424 mould, old or new. The mould we use and one I recommend is the Ballisti Cast #1101. This bullet can be had in 255 or 265 weight. These moulds aren't cheap but they will last a lifetime. I have two 4 cavity #1101 moulds at 255 grains and they are a joy to use and the bullet leaves nothing to be desired. They have a full diameter front driving band, flat bottomed lube grooves and beveled crimp grooves. These are the old H&G design if memory serves. Try one....you'll like it.
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BUTCHER
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| Posted: July 09 2007 at 4:33pm | IP Logged
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How can you tell if it is an older 454424 when asking someone over the phone?
BUTCHER
Edited by BUTCHER on July 09 2007 at 4:34pm
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dukers65
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| Posted: July 10 2007 at 4:08am | IP Logged
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butcher welcome. dan
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BUTCHER
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| Posted: July 10 2007 at 5:22am | IP Logged
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Thanks, Dan, I feel just that.
Hey all I am keeping a look-out at the available molds around and was curious what rare treasures I should keep my eye out for in .452 and 454-.456 calibers as that is what I'll be looking at the most (for now). Thanks again.
BUTCHER
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Ranch 13
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| Posted: July 10 2007 at 6:06am | IP Logged
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Butcher I'm casting and shooting the 255KT RCBS mould and really liking it. Sucker carries enough lube to make a 15 shot string of bp without cleaning thru the new model Vaquero. 
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stuffit
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| Posted: July 10 2007 at 7:11am | IP Logged
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Just a passing thought (maybe of equal value to gas), but, on contemplating the difference in silhouette of the original Keith designs, the larger and longer "square-cut" lube groove would seem to me to have a potential for an aerodynamic effect by placing a larger percent of the bullet's weight further forward, hence better stability at longer range. I've puzzled for years over why all the fuss over the shape of a grease groove other than for the sake of tradition. Perhaps the narrower back end of the bullet results in improved and more stable flight at longer ranges. I feel sure this has occured to someone before it did to me but I can't recall seeing it in print anywhere or hearing it discussed. Just a thought....
stuffit
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Ranch 13
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| Posted: July 10 2007 at 7:18am | IP Logged
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Nope I just loads and shoots em, if I like em I'm happy, and if I don't I ain't. 
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The most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it doesn't go where its supposed to.
GUSA #6 http://ranch13.blogspot.com/
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Paul5388
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| Posted: July 10 2007 at 7:34am | IP Logged
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It may well be that we will never appreciate the full potential of a true Keith bullet, because we shoot mostly at shorter ranges.
Elmer seemed to be too adamant about the precise construction of his bullets for it to have been just him being cantankerous. With that thought, it would seem that Glenn may have been a little too flippant in his dismissal of the necessity of adhering to Elmer's design specifications.
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J Miller
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| Posted: July 10 2007 at 7:38am | IP Logged
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The only Keith type bullets I have a mold to is a 70's vintage two cavity with the smaller rounded grease groove.
I've never had any trouble with it, but then I've never had a consistent supply of the large square grease grooved bullets to compare it with until now.
I have several hundred of my bullets cast, and some Black River Bullets as well.
I've also found an outdoor 100 yard range to shoot at and now I do some semi-long range comparison between the two.
Joe
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Paul5388
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| Posted: July 10 2007 at 7:50am | IP Logged
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Joe,
I suppose 100 yards may tell some difference, but I was thinking more along the lines of Stuffit's shooting of those cattle feeders at 300+ yards. That may be when the real difference is seen.
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stuffit
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 5:25am | IP Logged
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As I read Keith's articles and those of others pertaining to his bullet designs, from my perspective, it appears the changes to which he most objected were those which resulted in a rearward shift of the weight distribution of the bullet; the width of the forward-most diving band and the depth and width of the lube groove just anterior to the rear driving band. Both of these features resulted in a closer approach to the tumble-proof "tear-drop" shape and removing them, of course, did the opposite. I've never read any reports of his written or spoken objections amounting to much more than "this was/is a mistake!" and expressions to that effect and he may or may not have been conciously aware of why/how he felt his original design features were preferable for long range work. But his expressions of his objections were usually tied into "long range" accuracy. His knowledge was most likely empirical but as loquacious as he was, Keith seems not to have vocalized or written down all of the thinking that went into his bullet designs. Likely we'll never know, but, to my notion, a closer inspection of the bullet shapes definitely provide a good clue or two.
stuffit
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LAH
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 6:51am | IP Logged
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stuffit wrote:
| His knowledge was most likely empirical but as loquacious as he was, Keith seems not to have vocalized or written down all of the thinking that went into his bullet designs. stuffit |
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Think maybe I'll post my thread from Cast Bullets here and see what is said. (Real Keith Bullets)
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J Miller
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 8:39am | IP Logged
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Paul,
Quote:
Joe,
I suppose 100 yards may tell some difference, but I was thinking more along the lines of Stuffit's shooting of those cattle feeders at 300+ yards. That may be when the real difference is seen. |
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Before moving to IL I had my casting equipment set up and cast a lot of the Lyman 454424 that I have. I used wheel weights and it averaged out at 268grs lubed. From both my 7.5" OM BH, and my 4" S&W 25-5 I regularly shot at ranges well over 250 yards.
There was a place where I could shoot from one side of a small canyon to the other. A bush that wasn't more than 2 feet or so big and I could regularly put those "Keith Type" bullet into this bush with both guns.
I wasn't using 2400 on them then, only 9.0grs Unique.
I also bought several thousand bullets from a custom caster that weighed 255grs and were cast from the RCBS mold. Sized to .454" and loaded over the 9.0grs of Unique, it leaded more and wasn't as accurate as my own bullets from my large throated 25-5.
I not sure know why as the RCBS bullet is supposed to be more of a true Keith design than the Lyman 454424 I have.
It carried more lube, I bought them unlubed and unsized, so both bullets have the same lube. I suspect it was because the RCBS bullet was harder and my softer bullets expanded a bit more to fill the throats.
I never did get to do a good test with them from my Ruger.
That is why in LAH's thread I said I was confused.
I still have several hundred of these old custom cast bullets, and recently another Handloads member cast me up a bunch of bullets from my own Lyman mold, and I've got a bunch of Black River bullets.
Ifin I was back in AZ I could really test these out, but here ..... a hundred yards is a looooooooooong way.
Joe
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Paul5388
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 9:16am | IP Logged
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Joe,
I understand your circumstances won't allow real long range shooting and I wasn't trying to belittle you over it. Sometimes things just aren't possible in the location we're in. 
I did notice in the article you posted by Elmer, that he claimed the factory modified bullet of the first .357s wasn't accurate after 75 yards. With that thought, you may be able to see some difference at 100 yards.
I also noticed that he explained the necessity of the wide front driving band, that no one seems to want to make on their bullets.
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Ranch 13
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 9:18am | IP Logged
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LAH wrote:
Think maybe I'll post my thread from Cast Bullets here and see what is said. (Real Keith Bullets) |
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 Wow what a treat that would be reading something about Elmer Keith by someone who actually knew the man.
Couldn't help but be much better than some of the 3rd hand internet bs we've been treated to as of late.
Post it quick please and thankyou.
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The most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it doesn't go where its supposed to.
GUSA #6 http://ranch13.blogspot.com/
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Paul5388
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 9:36am | IP Logged
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Ranch,
If I'm not mistaken, Stuffit has talked to Elmer in person (on the telephone) and may have some correspondence from him too.
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Ranch 13
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 11:18am | IP Logged
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Paul you know as knowledgeable as Stuffit is on matters of cast and shooting cast, and all things Keith that really wouldn't surprise me.
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The most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it doesn't go where its supposed to.
GUSA #6 http://ranch13.blogspot.com/
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Handloads.Com Forum : Cast Bullets
Topic: The .45 Keith SWC
