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snake-eater
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Posted: April 02 2012 at 4:54pm | IP Logged Quote snake-eater

Since the release of Rossi's .410 Bore Lever Action
shotgun with micro-grooved rifling, has anyone reloaded
any .410 Bore slugs to take advantage of the potential of
the rifled barrel? I have used Rocky Mountain Cartridge
Company's 2-1/2" and 3" Brass 410 Bore Shotgun Hulls and
41 Magnum (.410") JHP pistol bullets to produce some real
410 Bore deer slugs. Use any good shotshell reloading manual
to determine what load data and bullet grain weight to substitute
for shot weight(use ounce to grain conversion tables).
Use a 41 Magnum Factory Crimp Die to crimp the cartridge.
The use of a 410 Bore shot wad as a sabot opens the possibility
of many other Jacketed Hollow Point bullet combinations.




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Matt_
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Posted: April 02 2012 at 5:49pm | IP Logged Quote Matt_

snake-eater wrote:
Use any good shotshell reloading manual
to determine what load data and bullet grain weight to substitute
for shot weight(use ounce to grain conversion tables).
Use a 41 Magnum Factory Crimp Die to crimp the cartridge.


That's a really questionable way of figuring up data. Way different case volume under the projectile and a bore diameter bullet likely has way more resistance than a shot column too. Might not blow the gun up since it's a rifle action but I doubt you'd get an optimum load copying shotshell data.

Edited by Matt_ on April 02 2012 at 5:50pm
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Paul5388
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Posted: April 02 2012 at 7:09pm | IP Logged Quote Paul5388

I normally use a 275 gr .38-55 bullet in my brass hulls with a shot cup. It shoots about like a normal .410, but I've had problems with buckshot in a shot cup not having enough sidewall pressure to allow proper powder burning, which produced squibs. The solution was to add some 7 1/2 shot as a filler and that was included in the total shot weight for normal shot shell data.

A rifled slug barrel should be cylinder bored and the micro groove rifling isn't very deeply cut, so it shouldn't produce as much pressure as a choked (the reason I use .38-55 bullets) barrel would.

I forgot a couple of things. Welcome to the forum snake-eater! brass hulls have a larger ID than plastic hulls, so you have to use an over powder wad and an overshot wad when you use shot cups.

Edited by Paul5388 on April 02 2012 at 7:11pm


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LAH
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Posted: April 05 2012 at 7:44pm | IP Logged Quote LAH

Paul is there anything you've not tried?

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snake-eater
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Posted: April 05 2012 at 8:36pm | IP Logged Quote snake-eater

Paul, thanks for sharing your knowledge with all of us.
With the rifled barrel, you might want to try a .430"
over powder wad and a Hornady 200 gr 35 Caliber (.358")
FTX bullet in a Ballistic Products Magnum Wad. You can also use a Hornady 140 gr 357 Magnum(.357") FTX bullet within a Ballistic Products Magnum Wad. Both of the above combinations will give you a nice tight fit with your brass hulls. If you gun's extractor can handle the thick rims and the 3" length, you can also use 405 Winchester Rifle Brass to make some "Super Magnum" Slugs (LIMITED ONLY BY WHAT YOUR GUN CAN HANDLE)!I will NOT share any load data to avoid legal liability issues.

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Paul5388
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Posted: April 05 2012 at 9:23pm | IP Logged Quote Paul5388

Quite a few things are untried by me Lynn.

SE, I only have a NEF shotgun, so I have to deal with the full choked barrel most .410s have. I did buy a 00 Lee mold, mainly for buckshot in that same shotgun. Slugs are better shot from a .45-70 and are a whole lot more accurate!

BTW, I use a Harbor Freight hollow punch in 7/16" to cut my wads. Just about any card stock will serve the purpose.

Edited by Paul5388 on April 05 2012 at 9:26pm


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Pete D.
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Posted: April 06 2012 at 5:38pm | IP Logged Quote Pete D.

Paul5388 wrote:
brass hulls have a larger ID than plastic hulls, so you have to use an over powder wad and an overshot wad when you use shot cups.


That is certainly true of the drawn brass hulls made by Magtech/CBC.
Rocky Mt Cartridge hulls are each lathe turned and are entirely of an different quality. They are true to gauge and thus use modern plastic wads (if you wish) and #209 primers. Last time that I checked, the .410s were $54 per box of twenty. The 12 ga. hulls a $6 a piece and worth every penny.
Pete

Edited by Pete D. on April 06 2012 at 5:39pm


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Paul5388
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Posted: April 06 2012 at 5:59pm | IP Logged Quote Paul5388

I use Magtech (CBC) hulls that cost less than $1 each regardless of gauge and I just deal with the larger ID. http://www.ballisticproducts.com/410-Bore-2-1_2-Brass-Shotsh ells/productinfo/3924165/

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turbo1889
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Posted: April 07 2012 at 2:48am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Matt_ wrote:
snake-eater wrote:
Use any good shotshell reloading manual
to determine what load data and bullet grain weight to substitute
for shot weight(use ounce to grain conversion tables).
Use a 41 Magnum Factory Crimp Die to crimp the cartridge.


That's a really questionable way of figuring up data. Way different case volume under the projectile and a bore diameter bullet likely has way more resistance than a shot column too. Might not blow the gun up since it's a rifle action but I doubt you'd get an optimum load copying shotshell data.




Matt_, normally I am a nice guy and just let things go. But I cannot do so on this one. I am a man who picks his battles and this particular subject is one of the hills I have dug in on and will only yield to sound reason based upon hard confirmed fact.

You with that post either knowingly or unknowingly are directly perpetrating proven to be false and misleading information. Multiple individuals who own pressure trace equipment have proven that all other things being equal including the wad-column an equal weight cast lead slug including those that are full diameter and engage and engrave in rifling of a rifled slug barrel including conventional deeper groove rifling not just micro-groove rifling produce slightly less peak chamber pressure then an equal weight of lead bird shot.

Unless you have pressure trace equipment of your own and know how to use it and can provide hard data to the contrary of what so far has been shown by all known previous testing, please quit blabbering and running your mouth and repeating a common falsehood concerning a subject that you apparently don't know squat about and you apparently don't have the knowledge skills or equipment to even evaluate and thus are not qualified to speak of.

I will say, that you are correct that a difference in case capacity and/or wad-column length or composition or the lack of a wad-column at all does indeed change the results and so you can't just go straight across from load data intended for lead shot with a known wad column set-up to a metallic case cartridge firing a cast lead slug crimped in its mouth with no wad column at all and extra "air space" in the case that is unaccounted for and changes the dynamics of the load. So there is some credence to what you have said, but that does not excuse your spreading of the old and tired propaganda that an equal weight lead slug will raise chamber pressures compared to an equal weight lead shot load when in truth of fact verified by real world chamber pressure measurements all other factors being equal the exact opposite has been found to be true.

____________________________________


My Personal Pressure Trace Testing Results:

Here is some actual factual experimental results from my pressure trace set-up that I have attached to a 12ga. NEF-USH gun that I use as a test bed. Its a couple years old but last I checked the scientific laws of the universe haven’t changed in the meantime and it was an easy copy and past from an old thread where I already provided this information:



1. ~ Remington 1-1/8oz. Walmart bulk pack economy loads slug substitution test:
----- a. ~ T1, T2, & T3 Are the loads fired just as they are straight out of the box with the original lead shot payload in them.
----- b. ~ T4, T5, & T6 Are the loads opened up and the shot dumped out and a naked 0.690” round ball cast with the Lee mold with the weight of the ball regulated to be 1-1/8oz. by adding pure lead to WW alloy until the density was right and then re-crimped nice and tight with a fold crimp with the center of the fold crimp heat sear sealed just like the original load.
----- c. ~ T7, T8, & T9 Are the loads opened up and the shot dumped out and replaced with a slug cast from the Lyman 525gr. wad-slug mold with the weight of the slug reduced to 1-1/8oz. by casting with pure type-metal alloy and then re-crimped nice and tight with a fold crimp with the center of the fold crimp heat sear sealed just like the original load.




2. ~ Published 1oz. lead shot clays powder load data slug substitution test:
----- a. ~ T1, T2, & T3 Are a published load with the load data followed exactly loaded into fresh once fired hulls. The load in question is listed as having a pressure of 10,900 PSI and calls for 21.0 grains of “Clays” powder to be used in the 2-3/4” Federal paper base wad hull ignited with a Fed-209A primer and uses a Fed-12S0 wad.
----- b. ~ T4, T5, & T6 Are the same load with a naked 68-cal round ball cast with type metal to get the weight down to 1oz. substituted for the shot inside the wad and no other changes made to the load.
----- c. ~ T7, T8, & T9 Are the same load with the 1oz. Lee slug cast from pure lead substituted for the shot inside the wad and no other changes made to the load.




3. ~ 12ga. 1-3/8oz. Full Bore Foster Slug (Custom Mold) Load Work Up:
----- a. ~ T1 Is a published lead shot load with the load data followed except for the slug was substituted for the shot with the petals were cut off the wad and a couple nitro cards put in between the top of the plastic wad and the base of the slug to adjust the wad column height to get a good (fold) crimp loaded into a fresh once fired hull. The load in question is listed as having a pressure of 9,000 PSI with 1-3/8oz. of lead shot and calls for 36.0 grains of Blue Dot powder to be used in the 2-3/4” Federal Gold Medal hull ignited with a Win-209 primer and uses a Remington RP12 wad.
----- b. ~ T2 & T3 Are the same load with the wad column stiffened up by switching to the use of a Federal 12S4 wad with the petals cut off and a more nitro cards. First of the two loads fired was cast from hard WW alloy; second of the two loads fired was cast from soft nearly pure lead.
----- c. ~ T4 & T5 Are the same load with the wad column stiffened up by switching to the use of a Federal 12S4 wad with the petals cut off and a more nitro cards. Plus the primer was swapped out for the hotter Fed-209A magnum primer. First of the two loads fired was cast from hard WW alloy; second of the two loads fired was cast from soft nearly pure lead.
----- d. ~ T6 & T7 Are the same load with powder charge increased by two grains to 38 grain of Blue Dot with the previous modifications of the wad column stiffened up by switching to the use of a Federal 12S4 wad with the petals cut off and a more nitro cards and the primer being swapped out for the hotter Fed-209A magnum primer. First of the two loads fired was cast from hard WW alloy; second of the two loads fired was cast from soft nearly pure lead.
----- e. ~ T8 & T9 Are the same load with powder charge increased by two grains to 38 grain of Blue Dot with the previous modification of the wad column being stiffened up by switching to the use of a Federal 12S4 wad with the petals cut off and a more nitro cards. Only this time the CCI-209M magnum primer was used instead of the Fed-209A magnum primer. First of the two loads fired was cast from hard WW alloy; second of the two loads fired was cast from soft nearly pure lead.




There are a lot of interesting things in all three of those pressure trace records of note that we could discuss but for today I just want to concentrate on whether or not they show that substituting equal weight slugs for the shot in a lead shot load makes the pressure go up or go down all other things held equal. I will also note that the 1-3/8oz. full bore diameter slug when cast from hard WW alloy is a couple thousandths of an inch over bore size and does indeed have to squeeze down in the forcing cone to fit the barrel of my NEF-USH gun in which all three of these pressure traces were recorded. In addition the 0.690” RB is about 0.010” too big to fit inside a standard shot wad and the wad petals not be bulged out over bore diameter accordingly and it does tend to shear the front half of the petals off the wads or at least thin them in the spot where the equator of the ball is.

____________________________________


Twin Loads & Standing On the Shoulders of Giants:

Now it is true that I did engage in the practice of building slug loads from equal weight lead shot load data long before I ever purchased the pressure trace equipment necessary to do the kind of load development work outlined above that allows one to not only quantify peak chamber pressure levels of the loads one is working with but to also view certain quirks and problems with certain loads (as you might have noticed something weird is going on with the Lee slug substitution in the 1-oz. clays powder load above).

The reason I chose to do so was a because I found a giant who had already done the experimental work and had the actual hands on first person experience in this area to qualify in my mind as someone I could trust their work enough to stand on their shoulders. The individual in question is James the owner of Dixie Slugs

Dixie Slugs Is a federally registered and licensed custom ammunition company that specializes in heavy full bore diameter cast slug loads Here is a link to the company web site: http://www.dixieslugs.com

The owner, "James," from what I have researched has over 50 years experience with the commercial manufacture of ammunition is a member and semi. active poster on the cast boolits forum.

I would like to reference a few of his past posts at this time:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=403640&postco unt=10
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=278728&postco unt=46
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=278665&postco unt=42
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=265637&postco unt=7
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=265270&postco unt=5

Here are the exact excerpts of said posts that I am referring to:

Dixie Slugs;403640 wrote:
Let's put pressur into focus indeed! Our Terminator (.730'-730 gr - 1250'/") and Tusker (.727"-600 grs-1500'/'- 1 3/8 oz)) are within the working pressure of 12 ga 3" Mag...tested by Ballistic Research! That's out of a 20" rifled barrel!
A solid does not have the pressure of shot load of equal slug weight/powder weightr, due to the difference in sidewall pressure. The original Paradox pushed a .730-730 gr hard solid at 1200'/" with Cordite.
We have people making speculation of pressure that has not had loads tested in a pressure gun....we do!
Now...an equal weight solid will have no more pressure than a shot load at the chamber and less at the nuzzle....if the powder burn is correct and the weight of powder tested. . . .


Dixie Slugs;278728 wrote:
. . . A good safe place to start with powder is to use the same amount showing for an equal weight shot. Slug/buulet laods have less sidewall pressure. friction than an equal weight of shot. . . .


Dixie Slugs;278665 wrote:
Let me explain something right up front. I spent my entire adult life working for the gum and ammo co's, in various postions, including Vice-Pres & Director of Marketing for the former Smith & wesson Ammo Co. Duriing all that time I was fortunate to have rubbed elbows with some of the old Greats.
When I retired and moved back to my native state of Florida.....I got tired of fishing and general loafing around. Ammo is in my blood and the results was Dixie Slugs. I enjoy the head to head talk with my customers....there is no middlemen eating up dollars.
Now....as I have said before, there is a growing intrerest in rifled barrels.....and not only in shotgun-only-states. Many of our customers have been involved witj hard cast in handguns.....a natural progression to large rifled barrels.
I really do not claim to have a good bedside manner and sometime come off a little caustic when I see speculation, instead of facts. With all the sydicated gas bag writers today, the web is about the only place left to get facts!
I am nothing more that an old mossy-back ammo man!
Regards, James


Dixie Slugs;265637 wrote:
Exactly! As I have mentioned, and based on pressure tests, solids do not have the side wall pressure/friction, that an equal weight/velocity as a shot load. . . . When you move over to rifled barrels and solids, a good place to start is equal powder to match an equal weight shot charge. . . .


Dixie Slugs;265270 wrote:
. . . Fact!...different wad columns do not change pressure, up or down, as much as weight of slug/bullet or velocity.
A beginning load for a solid starts with a shot load of equal weight. Solids do not have the sidewall pressure/friction the a shot load has.
There are many different opinions as to powder burn rate....and single base vs double base powders. In most cases, the powder recommended for a certain shot weight is close for a equal soild's weight. . . .


The ONLY change I have made to those posts I am quoting is to cut out stuff that is off topic for this particular discussion. In such cases I indicated where I had made such cuts by putting in ". . ." in what I quoted. These are taken directly from his posts that I linked to and are in respective order to the links so you can double check me if you wish.

I do question everything and try to double check stuff with other sources if possible. So I didn’t take even what old Dixie said at face value and instead did a little research of my own within my limited abilities to do so at the time. Specifically I went digging through my assortment of published slug and lead shot load data looking for what I refer to as “twin loads” namely loads that use the same hull, same primer, same powder, and same or very similar wad column and compare the powder charges, pressure, and velocity of the two published loads to each other that have essentially the same components except for one is a slug load and one is a lead shot load. Here are a couple good examples of such loads:

Twin Load 1-A:
----- 2-3/4” Fed. All Plastic (that would include the GM and a couple others) Hull
----- Win. 209 primer
----- 31.0 grains "Hodgdon Universal Clays" powder
----- Fed. 12S3 wad (with addition of PR's TS disk a thin tyvek disk in bottom of wad)
----- Lyman 525gr. slug cast from hardball alloy to make a 500gr. slug
----- 1,388fps. @ 9,100 PSI
----- Load Source = Precision Reloading "Blanks to Supersonics" page #123

Twin Load 1-B:
----- 2-3/4” Fed. GM hull
----- Win. 209 primer
----- 26.5 grains "Hodgdon Universal Clays" powder
----- Fed. 12S3 wad
----- 1-1/8oz. (492 grains) of lead shot
----- 1,300fps. @ 9,400 PSI
----- Load Source = Lyman 5th Shotshell Book page #138

A slightly heavier slug pushed to higher velocity with a heavier charge of powder at less pressure then an equivalent lead shot load.

Twin Load 2-A:
----- 2-3/4” Win. AA Hull
----- Win. 209 primer
----- 24.5 grains "Hodgdon Titewad" powder
----- Win. WAA12L wad (with addition of PR's TS disk a thin tyvek disk in bottom of wad)
----- Lee 7/8oz. slug cast from pure lead
----- 1,517fps. @ 10,690 PSI
----- Load Source = Precision Reloading "Blanks to Supersonics" page #121

Twin Load 2-B:
----- 2-3/4” Win. AA Hull
----- Win. 209 primer
----- 21.4 grains "Hodgdon Titewad" powder
----- Win. WAA12L wad
----- 7/8oz. of lead shot
----- 1,400fps. @ 10,800 PSI
----- Load Source = Old Hodgdon Free Load Data Pamphlet (and also listed on their web-site right now)

An identical weight slug pushed to higher velocity with a heavier charge of powder at less pressure then an equivalent lead shot load.

Edited by turbo1889 on April 07 2012 at 3:16am


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turbo1889
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Posted: April 07 2012 at 3:11am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Okay, now that I got that off my chest and did some more hammering on that nasty old wives-tale about lead slugs raising pressure compared to equal weight lead shot that simply won't die and keeps rearing its ugly head.

Snake-eater, I can tell you from personal experience with working with all kinds of slug combinations in multiple gauge sizes including the 410-bore that you can indeed use 410 lead shot load data by equivalent weight as a starting point to work your load from provided you still use a wad column to take up the empty space between the top of the powder and the bottom of the slug.

Since the 410-bore doesn't normally have hardly any "crush" in its wad set-up with most loads you can use a very simple wad-column consisting of just hard nitro cards stacked between the powder and the base of the slug. If you load without any wad column at all and leave all that extra air space that the plastic shell lead shot loads that you "borrowed" the load data from don't have then it will change the dynamics of the load and the load data won't be right and you will have to futz with it and adjust the charge to get it to work right (which can be done of course) but using some kind of a wadding column or filler to take up the space such that everything is compressed and held tight and there isn't any extra powder space in the resulting cartridge makes loading by weight with "donor" load data from lead shot loads applicable with a minimal amount of adjustment.

I should note that the 410-bore is unique among shotgun shell sizes in that the “donor” lead shot load data assumes a wad column with very little “crush” or “give” to it which is what allows a very hard and stiff wad-column to be used in slug loads built from the “donor” data. Where as with the larger gauge sizes a wad column with some crush to it needs to be used to match the conditions of the “donor” load. This is usually provided by using some felt or fiber wads in the wad column and not just hard card only or using the crush section out of a plastic shot wad.

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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

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Pete D.
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Posted: April 07 2012 at 3:18am | IP Logged Quote Pete D.

Turbo: Thank you. That was a wildly informative post. You did a service bringing all of that together.

Also...about my comments regarding drawn brass and lathe turned hulls...just in case...I meant no slight. Most of my brass hulls are Magtech or Bell and are of the 11 gauge I.D. variety. The OP mentioned that he was using RMC hulls which are different - more expensive, true to bore.
Pete

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Posted: April 07 2012 at 10:39am | IP Logged Quote Matt_

turbo1889 wrote:
I will say, that you are correct that a difference in case capacity and/or wad-column length or composition or the lack of a wad-column at all does indeed change the results and so you can't just go straight across from load data intended for lead shot with a known wad column set-up to a metallic case cartridge firing a cast lead slug crimped in its mouth with no wad column at all and extra "air space" in the case that is unaccounted for and changes the dynamics of the load. So there is some credence to what you have said, but that does not excuse your spreading of the old and tired propaganda that an equal weight lead slug will raise chamber pressures compared to an equal weight lead shot load when in truth of fact verified by real world chamber pressure measurements all other factors being equal the exact opposite has been found to be true.


The OP is using jacketed bullets, crimping with a pistol die, and made no mention of wad column height. Dunno how I was "spreading propaganda" since lead slugs weren't even mentioned in the thread until your post/rant. I never said anything about properly substituted lead slug loads.

Anyways "now I've got that off my chest" it'd be good if the OP clarified exactly how he is assembling these jacketed slug loads. I'm not sure if he's safely using shotshell data or just getting away with it because he's using them in a 30WCF rifle action.
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