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alpal
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Posted: April 05 2012 at 5:36am | IP Logged Quote alpal

Whilst searching for 45-70 load data I came across this data for any 300gr bullet on handloads.com. to quote:

"any 60.0 gr H4198 2,400 fps 2.55" WLR Guest
Suggested starting load: 54.0 gr
Use ONLY in modern leverguns!!! This is wonderful in my 1895SS, but only gets 2300fps in the 22" barrel. I pulled this one from the Hodgdon #27 Manual. With the proper bullet, this load will kill anything in North America. I use the Sierra JHP for deer, and any JFN for bear."
As 54.3gr of this powder is listed in the Sierra handbook as maximum and the hornady handbook lists 51.2gr as maximum for modern Marlin rifles it seems very hot.

Has anybody else tried this load as I am concerned that it may be dangerous even at its starting load.

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lovesrugers
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Posted: April 05 2012 at 6:41am | IP Logged Quote lovesrugers

That load is still listed by Hodgdon for lever action rifles chambered in 45-70.

The specifics for the max load are 60 grains H4198 under a Sierra HP fired off by a CCI 200 primer. Hodgdon used a 24 inch barrel for their test and got 2,424 fps with an operating pressure of 40,000 CUP.

As with any load you should start low and work up. You can still find this load listed in Hodgdons reloading data center:
Hodgdon Reloading Data Center

Yes it is a hot load, but it should be safe in the proper firearm according to Hodgdon. Once again start low and work up in your gun.
Jerry

Edited by lovesrugers on April 05 2012 at 6:43am
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STCM(SW)
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Posted: April 05 2012 at 7:20am | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

That load is a killer on both ends in my Ruger #3...

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Rigmarol
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Posted: April 05 2012 at 7:23am | IP Logged Quote Rigmarol

May I add, no matter the source, drop down and work the
load up. NEVER assume a published max load is safe for YOUR
gun. YOUR gun is the one thing that was NOT TESTED for
publication.

Be safe. Have fun. Take lots of pictures!!!
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davemuzz
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Posted: April 05 2012 at 8:08am | IP Logged Quote davemuzz

Ya know.....FIWI, this is alpal's very first post. Now...I have a lot of mis-trust for first time posters who come onto any form and list the hottest load for a big bore rifle or handgun that they can find....and then they ask if "THIS IS A DANGEROUS LOAD"!!!

WTF!!!! Why would you even want to start with a load like this for any 45-70? I mean...what the hell are you hunting? Elephants?

This, IMHO, is nothing more than a "troll poster" who would like nothing more than to have an unsuspecting newbie load up a hot 45-70 and shoot it from a rifle that can't handle the pressure.

Dave

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alpal
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Posted: April 05 2012 at 3:47pm | IP Logged Quote alpal

Sorry for the late response guys as I posted my question last night "Australia time".
So davemuzz I am not a troll poster.
I simply am asking for feedback from others, I was just a bit surprised by the large difference in published loads by reputable sources so could it be that some handloading manuals are far more conservative than others perhaps fearing litigation.
I don't doubt the source or legitimacy of the load I was asking my question about as I myself confirmed it from the hodgton reloading site.

No dave I am not hunting elephants (300gr hp bullet)
just looking for a relatively flat shooting (by 45-70 standards) suitable for Sambar hunting.

I am sorry that my first post upset a senior member. No offence was intended.
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STCM(SW)
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Posted: April 05 2012 at 4:04pm | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

"I am sorry that my first post upset a senior member. No offence was intended."

Don't worry about it, some guys are just "Old grouchy" at times......
I'm one of them.....

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davemuzz
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Posted: April 06 2012 at 7:48am | IP Logged Quote davemuzz

Alpal, I've seen this happen on other forums that I post on. A guy will sign up, come on, post a question or even post load data that is above the max about a big bore rifle or handgun with the honest hope that some newbie will try it and then report back that his gun is now in pieces.

So, when I see the first "crack out of the barrel" post from new members on this type of subject, I "call 'em out."

However, You have at least responded back. Most "snipers" of this type don't do that.

Now, on your 45-70 question, 45-70 loads "Generally" fall into one of 3 categories.

1) Trapdoor loads. These are the lowest pressure loads and sutible for all rifles, but listed primarily for older converted black powder rifles or early action rifles with weaker actions.

2) Leaver-action loads. These are a bigger step up from the trapdoor loads. These are not sutible at all for older weak action rifles and are good for modern day Marlin and modern day Winchester's (not older Winchesters)

3) Ruger #1 loads. If you have a Ruger #1 you can load for this rifle. Don't use these loads for any other rifle but the Ruger #1. The Ruger has the strongest action out there. Period...end of story.

Besides, I don't know what the animal is that your hunting, but if you put the trajectory of your loads on a ballistic program, your not going to find a significant difference in the arc of any "Lever-Action" load.

So, a good mid-range load will get you just as dead as a top end Lever load, and your shoulder will like you more.

I shoot whitetail deer with the Hornady 325 gummy tips at 1700fps (slow by the Hornady standards) or a good 405gr.FP at about 1500fps. Usually they are dead before they even think of running.

That's why I love to hunt with the 45-70. No blood trails!!

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doghawg
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Posted: April 06 2012 at 12:10pm | IP Logged Quote doghawg

alpal

First off, welcome to the forum. My experience with the 300 gr. in .45/70 is limited to a total of ONE whitetail deer. That load was 51 gr. of H4198 for just over 2000 fps out of a Ruger #1. The Hornady bullet came unglued and never even exited and there was excessive meat damage. While the load you are referring to is listed as max for a modern lever gun in the Hodgdon #27 manual I don't think too many 300 gr. bullets will perform well at that speed. A glance at the Barnes manual shows their 300 gr. F.N.S.P. maximum load for a 1895 Marlin as 42 gr. for 1893 fps. Interesting!
Excuse my lack of knowledge of Australian critters but isn't the sambar a pretty big animal?

Randy

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alpal
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Posted: April 06 2012 at 7:13pm | IP Logged Quote alpal

Hello guys
Thanks for all that useful info. I don't blame anyone for being suspicious of loads posted on the net, particularly from first posters.
My son shot two sambar deer with the hornady gummy tips last season and they performed quite well on side on shots but on less than Ideal shot opportunities or running shots I suspect that there are better bullets available hence my interest in handloading my own. Yes the Sambar deer is a large deer and some can get to the size of Elk. They are a tough species known for there ability to carry plenty of lead. They inhabit heavilly wooded steep country in Victoria and New South Wales.
Just for Interest whilst trolling the net for info yesterday I came accross a very interesting and entertaining web site http://www.ballisticstudies.com well worth a look.
I will probably settle on the Hornady 350gr RN or FP and work up loads close to 2000fps using H4198 suitable for our Marlin 1895s.
I am thinking that it would be a good Idea to use new brass rather than than the shortened Hornady cases required for the 325grFTX bullets. I have not really been comfortable using these shorter cases as I suspect that they could lead eventually to chamber erosion but maybe I'm just being an old fusspot.
Thanks
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Paul5388
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Posted: April 06 2012 at 8:06pm | IP Logged Quote Paul5388

Welcome to the forum alpal!

Depending on availability, I would think a flatter shooting cartridge might be easier on your shoulder. A .45-70 gets to be too much of a good thing pretty quickly for me, but I'm only using a 7 pound rifle.

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alpal
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Posted: April 06 2012 at 9:47pm | IP Logged Quote alpal

Thanks
We don't mind the recoil of the factory loaded 325gr hornady ftx so I reckon we will handle these loads OK.
The only time I found it hard on the shoulder and nerves were after 30 shots at the bench ..Ouch
Working on new loads is fun so will have a go anyway. Nothing on the TV worth watching over here.
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M700
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Posted: April 07 2012 at 9:46am | IP Logged Quote M700

Choose your .45/70 bullets carefully. Some appear to be lightly constructed and intended for very sedate velocity:

300 gr Remington @ 2115 fps (H4198):


350 gr Swift A-Frame & 350 gr Hornady FNSP did better, even in excess of 2000 fps:




Factory 405 gr Rem FNSP for comparison:


All were shot into one-gallon plastic jugs, filled with water, at 25 yards. I've only taken game with the 405, and it did indeed punch right on through a mule deer at about 70 yards. High shoulder hit, broke the spine and dropped her instantly. That was with a handload of about 1650 fps.

Enjoyed the time with the .45/70, but never did real well afield with it. Much fun to shoot and carry though.

Regards, Guy




Edited by M700 on April 07 2012 at 9:48am
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alpal
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Posted: April 07 2012 at 8:44pm | IP Logged Quote alpal

Hello Guy
Thanks for those great photos, the 350gr bullets look to be the go from what I can see.
The 300gr show a lot of jacket shedding, the 400 not enough expansion but the 350s just right. I'm starting to sound like goldie locks and the three bears.
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M700
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Posted: April 07 2012 at 8:59pm | IP Logged Quote M700

I think the 405 expands a lot more as velocity increases. Never got around to testing any in water jugs except the one in the photo above - a factory load with a mere 1300 fps or so muzzle velocity. Pretty mild.

The wound through the mule deer looked like the bullet had expanded decently, and that was a 1650 fps load.

There is a good 300 gr bullet by Speer that is reported to hang together very well. I never tried it.

Eventually swapped out my .45/70 for a .375, so the .458" bullet testing is at least temporarily suspended. Kept one set of loading dies for it though - ya never know...

Oh, H4198 and Hodgdon's online data are good to go. Stout, but good loads. H322 is another good one for the .45/70 and warm but accurate loads.

regards, Guy

Edited by M700 on April 07 2012 at 9:00pm
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alpal
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Posted: April 07 2012 at 11:56pm | IP Logged Quote alpal

Thanks
The load I mentioned that I thought was hot was only because I had at that time seen only the Sierra and Hornady load data. I am confident that I will have no problems using the Hodgton data provided I use good handloading practice and work up my loads gradually as mentioned in the helpful postings of the members here.
Thanks to all for the kind help and advice.
Straight shooting.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: April 08 2012 at 8:47pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

alpal,

Been shooting that caliber for over 4 decades and never took it above 1450 with a cast 385 RN. And about 1250 with a 405 cast it knocks 400 pound hogs off their feet. But then again, I used to shoot old Sharps and Trapdoors and those old gals were not new leverguns to be sure. I don't shoot jacketed stuff in my Marlin Guide Gun. Just cast. 340's and 405's now...But I still don't go heavy with it.

The loads you're talking about makes my shoulder hurt just thinking about it! Guess I'm too old and frail to shoot heavy stuff now anyway...Was in Melborne some time ago (1970) and kinda know what the countryside looks like. Hope that you build a good load and take that animal you're after though.

Guy,(M700)tests a lot with many calibers and his input on jacketed performance is spot on. He hunts about anything that moves and can really give you good data on what will do the job right. And I agree with his study on the 300 JHP, in that it was designed for low pressure loads for the 45-70 in the black powder range to up the performance of older weapons. The little 300 JHP for the most part, would be a might fragile for your purpose and you might be better off with a 350 JFP for an animal of the size you describe.

As to case length, I agree with you on not using the shorter ones. A friend gave me two boxes of those and I thanked him but never even attempted to use them. I too, am an "old fusspot"!

Well, welcome to the forum and you'll find there are folks here that are really great at loading and all are very safety minded...

Cheers,

Wade

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alpal
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Posted: April 08 2012 at 11:49pm | IP Logged Quote alpal

Hello Wade
The choice of a power load is mainly to reduce the neccesity to track a hit deer and then have to carry out the meat in steep thick forest. We will know from our range testing wether the chosen loads are more than we can comfortably handle. We will have to be honest with ourselves as there is no point in carrying loads than you can not shoot accurately as a poorly placed shot could miss completely or worse merely wound.
I have managed to track down some 300gr Nosler partition protected point. I will load these to 2100-2200fps. These bullets seem to have a good reputation for expanding and holding together on medium game and they should be managable and suitable for our needs.
None of this will happen until I can get time off work but am looking forward to getting out to the range for a play.
Good shootin
Alan.
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M700
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Posted: April 09 2012 at 5:42am | IP Logged Quote M700

"I have managed to track down some 300gr Nosler partition protected point. "

Excellent! Now that's a bullet. Shame that Nosler no longer produces the 300 gr .458" Partition. Some of my .45/70 buddies tell me it's the best general purpose bullet they've ever used from the big Marlin lever guns.

That ought to work just fine...
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Posted: April 10 2012 at 2:35pm | IP Logged Quote JoeJack

Instead of starting a new thread, thought I'd hitchhike on this one for my question.

Need a 45-70 load for a 300 gn Lead RNFP bullet using IMR 3031.

There is plenty of load data here for a jacketed bullet of the same weight, but not for lead using that powder.

Thanks....
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