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rocket
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Posted: May 14 2012 at 8:15pm | IP Logged Quote rocket

This seems to be an awesome cartridge on paper , has any one tried it , what rifles are available in this cartridge , has any one tried it on foxes or coyotes ?
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Paul5388
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Posted: May 14 2012 at 9:02pm | IP Logged Quote Paul5388

Rod, I think the Hornet case is fragile enough to make me want to look at something based on a better case. Even with neck sizing, I still get cracked case mouths in my Hornet.

Maybe the Calhoon variety in K configuration would allow better case life. http://www.jamescalhoon.com/gophergetter.php

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joed
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Posted: May 15 2012 at 5:02am | IP Logged Quote joed

I hear there are case problems with this round.   Never owned a hornet but the case just doesn't look like it would be any fun to load.
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Ham Gunner
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Posted: May 15 2012 at 8:01am | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

I really have little knowledge of the .17 Hornady Hornet, but I found the .22 Hornet case to be very difficult to seat flat based bullets without occasionally getting a crushed neck. And of course, the case can not handle much pressure without the primer pockets loosening up. But I would think that with care, it could certainly be a fun little rocket with that small .17 cal. bullet.

I have had my chamber reamed to the K-Hornet and the brass lasts much longer than the parent tapered case.

Edited by Ham Gunner on May 15 2012 at 8:04am


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rocket
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Posted: May 15 2012 at 8:42pm | IP Logged Quote rocket

mmm i have a standard 22 hornet and dont have any reloading issues with it . I'm certainly not holding back , the following loads all use win 296 powder and were tested in a CZ brno made in 1967 , it has a good chamber , not loose , these tests are only 6 mths old and were done on a 73 degree day , a 24 inche barrel .
Should work up to these loads ...
12.0grns 296 , 40grn vmax , 2900fps
12.5 grns 296 , 35grn vmax , 3190fps
13.0grns 296 , 35grn vmax , 3250fps
13.0grns 206 , 30grn barnes , 3404fps
Unfortunately a few rifle makers dont put the effort into making their hornets and they have bad chambers and barrels , i know of two rugers with "loose" barrel cal. diameters .
A friend uses 12.8grns of 296 with the hornady 35grn vmax and last weekend thru his CZ he shot 5 shot grp less than 1/2 inche at 100 yds
I use the 13grn/35vmax on foxes and from the last 25 shot only 2 have run more than 10 yds and neither of these went more than 25 !!!!
The new 17 hornady should allow be to do that out to 250- 300 yds ....
thats why i want to check it out

good hunting
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rocket
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Posted: May 15 2012 at 8:44pm | IP Logged Quote rocket

Oh ....
by the way the above loads were in remington cases and with cci small pistol primers , just for interest .

Safe loading and fun shooting
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Paul5388
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Posted: May 15 2012 at 9:03pm | IP Logged Quote Paul5388

That's good to know, since W-W cases don't hold as much as R-P cases. I get 2750 fps with a 40 gr V-Max and 13.5 gr of Lil'Gun, but I only have a 20" barrel on a Handi rifle.

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davemuzz
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Posted: May 16 2012 at 5:25am | IP Logged Quote davemuzz

I'm waiting patiently for Savage to release their "Walking Varmiter" Model 25. Savage was suppose to release it in January of this year....but still hasn't done it. There was also rumor that CZ was going to come out with one....but apparently that was just rumor.

So far I have two factory boxes of Hornady .17 Hornet ammo, and 50 pieces (a box) of 17 hornet brass. Along with a new set of Hornady 17 Hornet dies (as Hornady is the only ones who currently make the 17 hornet dies).

So.....I'm waiting.....waiting.....waiting....

Dave

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turbo1889
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Posted: May 19 2012 at 9:18am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Hornady chose the wrong wildcat made on the wrong case by
far when they chose to start making this round.

There is another round with nearly equivalent performance
when loaded to hornet pressure levels and superior
performance when loaded to the higher pressure levels of
its parent case that is far superior especially in terms
of accuracy and from what I have been told is far easier
to case form and reload for then the various 17-Hornet
wildcats and the Hornady version.

The cartridge in question being a fairly new wildcat is
known by many names including but not limited too: "17-
Velociraptor", "4.37x28", "4.4x28", "4.5x28", ".17x28",
and ".17v5.7x28"

It is simply the 5.7x28 cartridge necked down to accept
17-cal. bullets and within a very small margin of error
of only a few thousandths of an inch here and there the
resulting cartridge very closely matches the proportions
of the 6mm-PPC cartridge of bench rest fame which is
regarded as one of the most accurate cartridges every
developed. To the naked eye without precision measuring
equipment the 4.37x28 (my personal preferred name)
appears to be a 71% size version of the 6mm-PPC.

The resulting 4.37x28 cartridge hasn't quite lived up to
the same level of accuracy producing a reported average
accuracy level of approximately 1/2-MOA where as the 6mm-
PPC is a 1/4-MOA cartridge but I dare anyone to claim
that on average a hornet cartridge any of the 22 or 17
caliber variations can come close to matching 1/2-MOA
accuracy levels as standard average performance.
Average performance means exactly that, I'm not talking
about finely tuned handloads which we all know can double
or more the accuracy potential of most guns.

Long story short, whoever made the decision at Hornady to
adopt a variant of the 17-Hornet when the 4.37x28 is a
far superior cartridge needs to have their tail kicked
half way across the room. Especially considering the
Hornet parent case is an old and fading cartridge where
as the 5.7x28 is a very popular newer cartridge which is
rapidly gaining ground.

Edited by turbo1889 on May 19 2012 at 9:49am


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turbo1889
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Posted: May 19 2012 at 9:29am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

In addition having a 4.37x28 chambered bolt action single shot rifle and the dies to case form and load for it is a great thing to have to use up all that empty brass laying around the floor of the local range free for the picking from all the non-reloaders who own five-seven handguns.

And yes of course the 5.7x28 makes an excellent little varmint cartridge in an accurate precision rifle platform all by itself even if you don't neck it down to 17 from the original 22 caliber. So much better then the 22-Hellnet (not a wild-cat ~ insulting term for 22-Hornet) I used to own and try to load for. I am so glad I sold that rifle off. Such a pain to load for and there was no way in hell that I was every going to be able to pick up free range brass by the handful for it like I can for the 5.7x28 right now.

I'm up and running right now with the 5.7x28 as a varmint rifle that I'm loading for. For the 4.37x28 I'm in a similar position to where Davemuzz is. I've got the rifle part way done just need to do final head-space work with a dummy cartridge but I'm held up on the dummy cartridge because I'm waiting for intermediate step forming dies because going directly from 22-cal down to 17-cal was too much neck-down to do in one step without messing up the shoulder which was an annoying complication. Based on my research of what others have done so far with this wild-cat I have high expectations to the point where I have committed the $$$ to build a custom gun and have custom loading dies made for it. Just didn't expect the extra wrinkle of needing intermediate step forming dies; I'm just way to used to necking up cartridges instead of necking them down.

Edited by turbo1889 on May 19 2012 at 11:25am


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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

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wolfdog
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Posted: May 19 2012 at 9:54am | IP Logged Quote wolfdog

Silly question, how does the 17 remington fireball fit in
here? Seems like it would be a good case and fairly
available?

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turbo1889
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Posted: May 19 2012 at 10:37am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

wolfdog wrote:
Silly question, how does the 17 remington fireball fit in
here? Seems like it would be a good case and fairly
available?


Significantly larger case capacity, higher pressure levels, more velocity, usually less accuracy, less efficient with modern powders, heavily stresses the bullet and for best accuracy needs monolithic solids, and also has a problem with heavy barrel erosion.

Basically in the 17-cal it is like one of the big over-bore 300 magnums in the 30-cal that we are all familiar with which in comparison makes the 4.37x28 I'm working with analogous to a 308-Win and the 17-Hornady-Hornet is analogous to a 30-30. Speaking in terms of comparison with the more familiar 30-caliber options that most people are far more familiar with.

Edited by turbo1889 on May 19 2012 at 10:38am


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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

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Posted: May 19 2012 at 10:53am | IP Logged Quote wolfdog

got you, so it's pretty overbore. Makes me wish the 218
bee hadn't died off to be honest.

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drinks
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Posted: May 19 2012 at 11:26am | IP Logged Quote drinks

WD, the 5.7x28 seems to be very similar to the .218 Bee in performance,the bee is some faster, although the Bee has a rim which makes it better suited to ss actions.
A .218 Bee is just the .25-20 necked down to .22.

Edited by drinks on May 19 2012 at 11:37am


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turbo1889
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Posted: May 19 2012 at 12:13pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

So far as the performance of the 5.7x28 parent cartridge and someone building a varmint long-gun to use it I should note that the ammo is built around the short military length barrel of the P-90 compact weapon system which has a barrel that is just a hair over 10 inches long. With a long gun with more barrel length you get a few extra hundred fps out of it beyond normal specs. provided you don't make the barrel too long so it outruns the case capacity. My 5.7x28 custom gun originally had a 24" barrel blank that I cut down an inch or two at a time until the velocity stayed the same instead of going up on each cut off. It's a hair over 18 inches length barrel as it is now which is where I stopped cutting it down. That is part of the reason I want to build this 4.37x28 gun since the smaller bore with the same case capacity should allow me to get useful velocity increases out of a longer barrel then that.

I'm getting about 2,300-fps with my handloads using 40 grain bullets out of my current 5.7x28 platform with its 18+" barrel which is noticeably more then the load data lists for velocity for the loads I am using.

For comparison the velocities others have been able to obtain with the 4.37x28 Wildcat have been between 3,000-fps and 3,600-fps depending on bullet weight, barrel length, etc. . . and are getting groups at 1/4-MOA and under with tuned handloads and rarely are getting anything above 1/2-MOA for any of their loads. So I think you can see why I'm interested in upgrading.

Yet, I still am going to most certainly keep the 5.7x28 since it ainít shabby by any means and since it isn't a wildcat I can get factory ammo for it too.

Edit: I should note that neither my 2,300-fps load in the 5.7x28 is a top end high velocity load or the loads of others I have researched (as I understand their work) for the 4.37x28 wildcat are top end high velocity loads. They are loads tuned specifically for maximum accuracy not maximum speed. I have gone a couple hundred fps faster with the same bullet and a different powder with my 5.7x28 loads (2,500-fps) but the accuracy wasn't as good. I won't know for sure how fast one can really go with a 4.37x28 until I finish building mine and have some time to play with it.

Edited by turbo1889 on May 19 2012 at 12:49pm


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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

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Ham Gunner
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Posted: May 19 2012 at 4:19pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

I think some of you are underestimating the capabilities of the Hornet case since some of the new powders have been brought out. When Hodgdon came out with Lil'Gun powder, it changed the performance of the .22 Hornet without increasing the pressure. It is fairly easy to get at least 2,850fps plus out of the .22 Hornet with about any 40gr. bullet and a decent length barrel. I get 3,000fps out of my K-Hornet with Hornady's 45gr. HP/BEE bullet and Hodgdon Lil'Gun and it easily has less than an inch average grouping. My rifle is not a real tack driver either. It is a Ruger 77/22 with only a 20" barrel.

But, of course like was stated, the accuracy of my load might not be the norm for regular .22 Hornet factory ammo. I have not fired any Hornet ammo for many years, but they do have lots of new offerings available these days.

Before Lil'Gun and before I reamed my chamber to the K-Hornet, I had tried in vain to get any decent fast loads with 296 that were not over pressure for the primer pockets. I reamed the chamber and then Hodgdon came out with the Lil'Gun powder that would have solved that problem with the straight Hornet. Boy did it really help out with the K-Hornet. I got velocity out of the 45gr. bullet that I was only hoping to do with a 40gr.



Edited by Ham Gunner on May 19 2012 at 4:39pm


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turbo1889
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Posted: May 20 2012 at 7:14am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Well, I will admit that my previous experience has made me
rather prejudiced against the Hornet and thus anything
using it as the parent case as well.

Given a proper tightly cut chamber that matches the
cartridge properly it might be okay if you can get enough
neck tension. I had terrible trouble with neck tension
issues and sloppy chambers and throats with the Hornet that
soured me considerably against the cartridge.

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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

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Ham Gunner
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Posted: May 20 2012 at 7:41pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

Stephen,
Like you, I did not always have good experiences with the Hornet. I would probably say that it was THE hardest cartridge for me to get to shoot. I finally determined, like you also, that the neck tension of that thin little neck was part of the problem, so after I went to the K-Hornet chamber in an attempt to get some accuracy, I worked up my load with a bullet that had a cannelure. The 45gr. Hornady HP/BEE that was designed for the .218 BEE.

Others have had great luck using Lee's Factory Crimp Die with the .22 Hornet to get consistent release. The bullet needs to be held into the case so that it can develop some consistent pressures. By necking it down to .17, it might be possible that the neck would be thick enough to give a more consistent release.

While I am really not a fan of the Hornady rimfire .17 HMR, I do like the little .17 Mach II. in a 10-22 Ruger. I made up one of those for my father-in-law to replace his heavy barrel 10-22 which was getting too heavy for him to carry. I opted for the carbon fiber wrapped barrel which weighs hardly anything and it shoots great. Quite the squirrel getter.

I will have to read up on the .17 Hornet. I guess I did not know that it was becoming a legitimate cartridge.

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rocket
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Posted: May 22 2012 at 6:00pm | IP Logged Quote rocket

The great reason we live in a democracy is that we are allowed to have different opinions and thoughts and express these :)
I have been reloading the 22 hornet for 8 yr.s and so far havent had any problems . I have used 40grn Nosler ballistic tip ( to long ) 40 grn hornady vmax , great load when flying around 2800 to 3000 fps , the old 40grn 22 winchester mag hp projectiles , not so accurate but a great cheap load ( could by the projectiles by the 1000 ) , the 35grn vmax , excellent load , flat and a great killer easy to get 31-3200fps and accurate , the barnes 35grn grenade , didnt stablise , nosler 35grn copper alloy , didnt stabblise , bullet to long for twist , my barrel is 1 in 16 , need a 1 in 14 , and the 30grn barnes , speeds of 3400 good accuracy .
I havent been chasing the best accuracy , a friend has and consistantly gets below 1/2 MOA with 5 shots , i use mine for hunting and happy with high speed and 3/4 MOA . I'm currently using the 35grn vmax bullets .
Have heard from a few people that the 35grn. factory loads from hornady are fantastic , but i havent tried any .
I like the hornet because it is quiet , no recoil and does the job out to 200 yds , i do a lot of vermin shooting and spotlighting ( rabbits to coyotes ), all of the shots are less than 200 and i need a cartridge which is quiet and has very little muzzle blast and flash . AND is easy to get components when reloading and living in the country . The hornet fits all of the above .
There are lots of possibiltites , but ease of getting things like brass is important , with cost cutting these days , my retailers only stock the "standard" lines , wholesalers charge the retail shop heaps for special one off orders and so the cost and time is great .
There are so many wildcat possibilities such as above and the 17 Mach IV ( originated from the 7x33 Sako i think ), the rem 17 fireball and 22fireball , 22PPC etc etc
With modern projectiles and powders and primers there are a lot of good options to get the desired load . And
of course some people are happy to walk in to a shop and just buy their needs , factory loads .
Unfortunately some firearm companies havent been helping us out and improving there quality too with modernisation .
I read an article recently reviewing a new "long range" model from a well known company and the av. group was around 1.5 inches , approx range from 1 to 2" , WHAT !!!! AND the review claimed as a good rifle .... come on ....
This is why the old 30/30 is still so popular , light , limited recoil adequate accuacy for deer and pigs , cheap and you can walk in any where in the country and buy your ammo for it . I dont have one , but why would you pay good money for a "long range" modern rifle if it aint much more accurate .... Thats another story and another soap box ...
Lucky we live in a democracy .   
Each to there own and their own wants .
     
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