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Old Ranger
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Posted: December 13 2016 at 9:41am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger



From left to right are the oddballs I enjoy. All are from old Ideal moulds I've found or had over the years. With every one of them long discontinued. Wouldn't trade em for Micky Mantel's bat!

First up on the left: #360271. The first true semi-wadcutter from 1904 in 150gr. No crimping groove but takes a good crimp in the front driving band. That base is .17" thick and with two healthy lube grooves, it can withstand a husky blow from fast burning powder or hold up to slower burning stuff and not allow blow by or gas cutting. It is almost scary how accurate it is.
Next is the #357446 in 162gr. Heralded by Ideal in the 40's as "The Standard Bullet for the .357 Magnum" , it's claim to fame is the thick base, two generous lube grooves, and a nose that fit in S&W revolvers of the time. Much like a plain base 358156, this bullet shares the same loading data and as a bonus, supurb accuracy and lethal performance on game. I have never required a second shot on deer, hog, or varmints shot with this bullet from a .357mag.
Next is Ideal's first .38 Special bullet designed in 1903 for the new cartridge. It predates the 358311 by a couple decades. Weighing in at 162gr with wheelweights, with two well designed lube grooves for excellent distribution of lube, this bullet was quite popular long ago. Especially since bullet lube was somewhat limited then. Today, it's my star performer in all my .38 Special pistols, and in particular the 1956 S&W M&P I call my original super cop revolver.
The far right is the Non-Elmer approved Rounded lube groove 358429, from the early 40's. Yeah, the one that angered old Elmer so much he almost swore off from Ideal and Lyman. So it too is a discontinued bullet in it's alternative form. Ideal/Lyman dropped the rounded lube groove despite it's great performances and ease of dropping from the mould compared to Elmer's square groove model. This mould is one half of a two cavity special order mould with the other cavity being the 358250 round nose.

So there you have it. Wade's Oddball Bullets. One thing though. If they failed to perform great, they'd be Wade's Ex-Moulds 'cuz we all know I don't keep what doesn't work.




Edited by Old Ranger on December 13 2016 at 9:44am


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Rex
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Posted: December 13 2016 at 10:01am | IP Logged Quote Rex

Nice line up Wade. I still haven't got to shoot my 357446 yet. Approaching mid-day and still 14 degrees. I have got a few cast and a few greased up with my home made beeswax/Vaseline mix. Think I'll start out with 6 grains Unique in a 357 case and see what happens.
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John P.
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Posted: December 13 2016 at 10:15am | IP Logged Quote John P.

Those are some nice bullets!   I am sure that 357446 is a real
performer in .357 Magnum. I have only casted the 358477, but I am
getting the itch to buy a real furnace, instead of that little Lyman pot,
and start some serious casting.
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Rex
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Posted: December 13 2016 at 10:39am | IP Logged Quote Rex

John, your Lyman pot isn't that bad a deal. I almost think my 357446 might cast a nicer bullet with a dipper up against it. I put it up against the spout of my bottom pour and pressure fed it and it make a nice bullet but is messy as the devil that way.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: December 13 2016 at 12:56pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Yes gentlemen, the two on the left are from a single cavity and the two on the right are from a double cavity that has the SWC in the front and the round nose in the rear. I get one each when I cast with that old custom ordered Ideal mould. They ALL cast great when I dip em, but the bottom pour pot is faster. But like Rex said, it gets a bit messy at times.

My so-called "trick" for a good filled out bullet from the bottom pour pot is to keep it just under half full. It's a 10# Lee Production Pot. With under 5# of metal it'll allow placement of the sprue hole against the spout for a well filled out bullet. But it does tend to shoot out a little bit over the sprueplate if I fail to keep it dead level! The ones in the pic were cast this way.
When I want really well cast rounds I get out the Lyman Big Dipper 10# open topped pot and my ancient Ideal dipping ladle. Using to old school method of the "rolling" from horizontal to vertical, I get gorgeous bullets. Though slower, it's much better for well formed bullets. I seldom do this for pistol rounds but mostly for precise loads with my .30'06 . Being the only rifle cartridge long gun I own I can be REAL picky about loads. Ha!
But even my "regular casting" for the .357mag with the 357446 with 6gr of Unique will cluster in a big hole off a rest with my SAA out to 20yds if I remain really still. (Which ain't real often these days!) Ha! So I believe that I don't need to be all that picky with my pistol rounds.

Rex, I do hope you get a chance to brag on your new bullets!

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richhodg66
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Posted: December 13 2016 at 1:31pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

Nothing odd about any of those, all look like very good designs to me.

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Abram
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Posted: December 14 2016 at 8:21am | IP Logged Quote Abram

I like those moulds, some day I want to cast my own, looks like a lot of fun
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Ham Gunner
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Posted: December 14 2016 at 9:58am | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

Those first two bullets on the left are very interesting. I would certainly think that they would be very good for all around .38 caliber use. Lots of grease and the 357466 could be loaded long and crimped down in the second groove for a hot .38 Special case load to be fired in a .357 without having to mess with a gas check. Very similar to the 358156gc. in length.

I like my 358477 which drops at around 150gr. for light weight .38 Special loads and think the 357466 looks almost identical to it except for the extra grease groove. I can about guess how accurate that bullet might be.

I have one double cavity Lyman 358429 mold that drops one hollow point and one solid and it has the square grease grooves. I would not part with that one.

Edited by Ham Gunner on December 14 2016 at 10:03am


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Old Ranger
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Posted: December 14 2016 at 1:47pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Did y'all see that massive tapered crimping groove on the 358250? That's one that slips into a levergun's loading gate like nuthin but can stand being stacked atop each other and never even think of being shoved back into the case. 4.5gr of Unique in a 38Spl case and it's magical.

That little guy on the left is rare now. Was special order only back in the day with the full .360" casting. Most are called 360271-S and drop at .358" to .3585" for the average 38Spl of old. Mine was nearly dead mint and remains spotless to this day. Stupid accurate!

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REM1875
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Posted: December 15 2016 at 11:21pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Can not see very many applications from possibly the 38
S&W (360) to the 357 maxi and 35 Rem and almost all in
between that would not have a use for those Wade. Too
many possibilities to even think of.
I like em.
I am not a worshiper of St Elmer- one way or the other
but prefer to go with what works so it looks fine to me.

Edited by REM1875 on December 16 2016 at 8:40am


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Old Ranger
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Posted: December 16 2016 at 9:25am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Yup, those are some of my .38 caliber bullets I use. But these are all old design and discontinued. That Keith SWC with the round lube groove really ticked ole Elmer off. I read stuff he wrote about Lyman (Ideal ) for destroying "his" bullet with that blasphemous lube groove. It was almost comical.

But the three left to right are some real go getters in my guns. With the two on the left being cast from single cavity moulds it takes a while to amass a pile of em. My situation calls for an hour to an hour and a half casting sessions. Any longer and I'm in some kind of aching pain. But in that time span I don't hurry and thus produce good castings.

As to Elmer's bullet, I personally think when he designed it he made it too long. True, it's accurate enough, but it's limited in some loadings for certain weapons and causes issues. I find if I want a heavy or standard weight bullet in a SWC I'll go with the 357446 as it seats perfectly and is remarkably accurate in almost every load I've tried, both in .38Spl and .357mag. I still load Elmer's bullet but only in a .38Spl case and to standard velocity for my single actions.

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Old Ranger
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Posted: December 16 2016 at 2:23pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Abram wrote:
I like those moulds, some day I want to cast my own, looks like a lot of fun


Depending on your approach to casting it can be a very relaxing and rewarding experience. Casting strictly for yourself with bullets that you prefer, it's pretty cool. If you're casting for production and sales, it's a monstrous task that creates little leisure time. When a class 6, I cast so many 358495 full wadcutters that after I got out of the business it was 15 years before I cast that bullet again. And the 452374 was another. I had Lyman 4 cavity moulds and they would get so hot from casting I rotated them regularly to avoid frosted bullets and burnt hands. I had two pots running and stayed busy casting up to 10 hours a day.

So now, if someone asks me to cast them some rounds, I smile and say they should learn the skill and enjoy the bullets they make. I'm no longer in business. Then I smile since it's not my intention to act rude.

A different story here if a member would like to try an out of print bullet that I might cast. I'll cast up some and gladly send em some to try. That way they don't get stuck with a mould if they buy an older mould and find the bullet is not to their liking. Most of us here do the same. The members here are far more dedicated to the "craft" of loading and such than the occasional shooter / loader who's only looking for a cheap source of bullets.



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Ham Gunner
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Posted: December 16 2016 at 5:38pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

That 360271 and 357446 both should work great in about any .357 mag. cylinder that is throated to shoot cast I would think.

I agree that Elmer's 358429 design is a bit too long in the nose for all around .38 caliber use today. It is also a bullet design that is long in the teeth as well since it was designed prior to the .357 mag. and was meant for the .38 Special. I think he designed it back in the 1920's.

I do not have any .357 Mag. cylinders that are too short for it except for my SP-101 .357 mag. five shooter, but I never carry cast in it. The SP-101 has small cylinder throats and works better with jacketed anyway.



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Old Ranger
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Posted: December 17 2016 at 6:33am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Yes sir, that little 358271 was designed in 1904 for the new .38Spl but with that massive base on it and two large lube grooves I've pushed it at and above 1,000fps in a .38Spl w/o issue. Oddly, I've never tried it in a mag case. Hummmm.
The 357446 is another story. I've driven it well into the 1,400fps range when I had 2400 and it was unbelievable! Even with a healthy dose of Blue Dot it's a champion performer. This bullet, at low speed (light load around 600fps ) developed a mild yaw. But 750fps and above, oh my, it's accurate!

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Ham Gunner
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Posted: December 17 2016 at 11:09am | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

I noticed that in one of my posts above that I mentioned the 357466 rather than 357446, which was the actual bullet that I was intending to discuss. Typing error.

I looked up the 358271 in the "Old Buffalo Bullet Mold Chart". Yes it certainly does have a beefy base to it for sure.

Old Buffalo Mold Chart

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Old Ranger
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Posted: December 17 2016 at 2:26pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

That bullet was also made in a 130gr version with the base thinned down. Never seen one in that weight in 60 years. A few 150's in the "-S" configuration, and the only one in the full .360" I've ever seen is the one I've got now. Between it and the others I've got, you'd have to kill me to get em.

Ham, if you pm me an address, I'll cast ya up some and send ya a bit to test after the holidays. And some of the 446's too if ya like . Then you can test your theories out.

Edited by Old Ranger on December 17 2016 at 2:31pm


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REM1875
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Posted: December 17 2016 at 10:14pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Ham Gunner wrote:



Old Buffalo Mold Chart


Thank You Ham
Now I can make an educated guess without rummaging
through stuff or ID what some else is talking about.

Edited by REM1875 on December 17 2016 at 10:17pm


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Old Ranger
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Posted: December 18 2016 at 9:35am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

We had 78 degrees yesterday with a strong SW wind that blew all day. Around 4pm it got real still. Time to shoot!

I had installed the rear sight from the old pre '64 M70 I once had on my Rossi M92 .38/.357 and wanted to be sure it was centered. I loaded up some of the 271's in the magazine and dropped some 446's in my pocket and went to the 50yd line of my rifle range. Was concerned about the 271's getting pushed into the cases under spring pressure but they behaved fine. Standing, at 50yds, that rifle was centered right and just needed one notch of elevation to hit 2" high at that range. My installation was great and the little 150gr 271's were tight too. Never tried em in the 92 as I always thought they wouldn't feed right and get bullets pushed into cases, but I was wrong. The 446's were great as well but needed a drop of a notch to hit right being much heavier bullets.

And the old M70 sight? A real winner! Much better than the Rossi family factory sight and the fine adjustment center blade for refined elevation was just icing on the cake.

Then an hour later wind from the north brought the arctic blast and temperature plummeted to freezing and below in no time. But my rifle was cleaned and loaded with fresh ammo and I had the satisfaction of knowing that my little 360271 bullet could indeed perform in my rifle after all. The Old Ranger is happy! Another success story of my "oddball bullets".

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