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JimH
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 5:49am | IP Logged Quote JimH

REM1875 wrote:
Sadly there is an insane school of thought among the
media and D.A.s who believe "too dead" is a crime.
Something I have never understood, 2 shots and dead is
ok - a panicked 15 rounds into them and dead is a
crime?
Same with too violent of a death caused by "exotic
ammunition" or weapons. You may be headed for a
lawsuit or jail.
For most dead is dead.

When we came from a run where the patient didn't make
it some idiot would always say in dead earnestness -
"Gee I hope he didn't die of anything serious"
In my line of thinking I have trouble conceiving of
where there is any form of less serious death no
matter the cause.


Yep. I would certainly agree that if you have to shoot someone then you need to shoot until the problem is solved (and that is what we tell our L.E. and Military students) - but there is that whole thing of "Problem Two": staying out of jail.

People (who sit on juries) are not well versed in this and we see, increasingly, that they tend to make a decision based not on the facts but on what they feel.

It is hard to get past shooting a guy (who will be presented by the prosecution as an ideal citizen) 6 or 8 or 23 times (I've seen as much as 104 - and they were all necessary).

I don't like the situation but it exits. I had to go to bat for folks on the local PD when they shot a subject armed with a rifle 14 times with their issue .40 S&W - they actually stopped firing when the subject ran out of ammo (he fired 30 rounds and did not have a spare magazine) - he was still up but they saw he was dry and they rushed in and wrestled him to the ground.

Even so, people complained they "shot him too much" (he did expire some 9 hours later - all the hits were "center mass"). Fortunately the prosecutor is a gun guy and was easy to convince that they used reasonable force.

Jim



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JimH
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 6:40am | IP Logged Quote JimH

RECURVE wrote:
I have a old cobra 50s I think nice to carry but the
trigger is got to much curve in it. 3 inch barrel very
accurate. Hasn't been shot much don't know what to ask for
it. Real good shape


There was a good article about Colt "snake guns" a couple of years ago in the American Riflman. Sorry but I don't recall the month - it may have been 2014 as a year or perhaps 2015 (they might have it online?).

Anyway they have gone crazy! Pythons lead the charge but Cobras and Diamondbacks are getting crazy prices - or were.

I stopped in several gun shops on a recent trip and saw a couple of Cobras that were running between $600 and $800 and they were not pristine.

It also matters a bit if it is a long (older) or short grip - IIRC the short frame came about around 1956?

I don't pay much attention to the various "value" books but if you watch Rock Island Auctions after a sale and see what stuff brought that is a fair indicator but your local market may certainly vary.

Jim

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RT58
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 10:05am | IP Logged Quote RT58

If I was an attorney for an officer charged with shooting a bad guy too much, I'd tell the opposing counsel to load up a gun and I'll start shooting them and we'll see how many times is too much.
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JimH
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 2:58pm | IP Logged Quote JimH

RT58 wrote:
If I was an attorney for an officer charged with shooting a bad guy too much, I'd tell the opposing counsel to load up a gun and I'll start shooting them and we'll see how many times is too much.


It is fairly easy to find expert witnesses who will make the case for multiple hits - the sticky part is sometimes it is the difference in just getting charged or not - some folks who know much more about it than me say if you get indicted it will cost minimum of $50,000 just to defend yourself in court...some say higher.

I guess it depends on the location.

Jim

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RT58
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 4:27pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

Yes, your success in a shooting depends on who you shoot and their mental state. Your success in court depends on who witnessed it and their mental state.
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REM1875
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Posted: January 30 2017 at 1:10am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

JimH wrote:

It is fairly easy to find expert witnesses who will
make the case for multiple hits - the sticky part is
sometimes it is the difference in just getting charged
or not - some folks who know much more about it than
me say if you get indicted it will cost minimum of
$50,000 just to defend yourself in court...some say
higher.

I guess it depends on the location.

Jim


Too many D.A.s are election happy and base their fame
on "convictions".
Most of those are plea bargains and the innocent are
often forced to plea bargain to something -anything
just to end the deal without the expense and
possibility of a wrongful conviction, and of course
that shows as another successful conviction.

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JimH
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Posted: January 30 2017 at 5:39am | IP Logged Quote JimH

Yes Sir, that is true. I have to say I know a handful of really knowledgeable, pro-gun, prosecutors who put the rule of law first. However they are a small % of the total and the bigger the jurisdiction the more political the job seems to be.

I've been around courts enough to know I don't want to be one the folks who wind up being examined by them... the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing certainly does not apply to the field of self defense.

Jim



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Old Ranger
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Posted: January 30 2017 at 9:12am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

The Grand Jury ain't so bad. Been there on three shootings in my years policing the population. Simply put, you tell the truth. Don't argue or act like a jerk. Answer truthfully, clearly, and don't add crap to your statements. Ditch the thought that anyone likes you there. Trust me, nobody likes the police unless they've been a victim and want you to be their bounty hunter to get even for them. Otherwise you're on your own. So stay focused. Keep your replies short and to the point. And always tell the truth.

John Q. Citizen actually has an easier time as he's "one of them" like the members of the jury. A regular Joe, and not a cop. Trust me, police are grilled more than the average guy. Goes with the job. The moment you, as an officer, draw your gun you switch from a report writer to a paid gunfighter for the city. And unlike reports where they can be supplemented later as the case progresses, a gunfight is quick and often fatal. You can't recall your bullets nor alter your actions. Witnesses see many different things involving a single incident. Time will change their memory. The media twists things according to the political winds and clouds the issue. So again, tell the truth. Keep it short and on track. Don't say thing like "Well I've heard that...." as that shows you're not able to think and act for yourself. Stay on track and speak clearly, don't mumble, or continue with lots of "um, uh, or ahh" in your statements. Shows them you're slow on your thinking and can't concentrate. They may draw the conclusion that you were the same at the time of the shooting. Speak clearly. Don't look down at the floor or fidget with your hands. Looks like you're hiding something or not being truthful. Look em in the eye and tell em what happened.

Your real worries are the deceased family. They'll likely sue. Make statements against you on tv. Possibly even get a protest march started against you and your department if you're a cop. It's worse if the suspect, robber, thief, or murderous person you shot was a minority. No one is above pulling the racist card if they can get media attention and money with it.

Ok, off my soapbox. ...
Ranger, out.

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