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Rex
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Posted: January 05 2017 at 12:53pm | IP Logged Quote Rex

About how much velocity will be lost by putting a .38 special load in a .357 case? Think 38/44 loads.

Edit:
Yes, I know that is kind of a dumb question but it is 9 degrees with 5" powder snow on the ground and I don't have much else to do AND I sure ain't going to set the Chrony up until May!

Edited by Rex on January 05 2017 at 1:14pm
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RT58
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Posted: January 05 2017 at 1:13pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

I've never chronographed any, but I would guess not much, if any. Depending on how long the barrel is.
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joed
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Posted: January 05 2017 at 2:22pm | IP Logged Quote joed

I never measured the velocity but would adjust .357 loads by .2 gr.   
I'm sure it loses some velocity in the larger case but was never to
concerned with it.

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Buffalogun
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Posted: January 05 2017 at 5:46pm | IP Logged Quote Buffalogun

Rex,

Since the mag case is sort of an extended special case, if you seat the bullets the same depth in the mag case as in the special case(taper crimp), I don't think you'll lose much!



Mike    

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Old Ranger
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Posted: January 05 2017 at 10:12pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Rex,
Phil Sharpe & Elmer Keith both did a lot of experimental loading in that area. Ideal published loading for heavy framed .38Spl revolvers with heavy loads. I'll extract that data and that from .357mag data and put it into an Excel spreadsheet for you in the morning. I'll locate .357mag loads that match .38/44 loads. I take it you would you prefer the listing to be for the bullets you cast, yes? Powders should be 2400 and Unique as well right? Let me know if there's another powder you might want to add.

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Rex
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Posted: January 06 2017 at 6:26am | IP Logged Quote Rex

That is about it Wade. To save confusion I think about putting 38/44 loads in 357 cases and wonder about the loss.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: January 06 2017 at 7:26am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Ok, I think I got it. Give me a bit to do the research and then I'll build a spreadsheet for that data with calculated velocity losses and a separate sheet for the original .38/44 type loads in .38Spl cases. Got some great data on that by the way....

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RT58
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Posted: January 06 2017 at 12:41pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

Rex wrote:
That is about it Wade. To save confusion I think about putting 38/44 loads in 357 cases and wonder about the loss.

I was going to post a long essay on the matter, but I know better.

If you are just wanting to duplicate .38-44 ballistics in .357 brass take a known .357 load, of your own or published data if close is good enough, and use the reduced load calculator on this sites home page to give you a load for a 158 gr. bullet at approximately 1100 fps.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: January 06 2017 at 3:20pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Well I was going to do the same, but thought better myself as well. Basically you'll loose between 80fps to about 100fps using .38/44 loads in a mag case.
Only thing I'm going to say is the loads built in a mag case are safe where using the same in .38Spl cases are grossly overloaded.

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Rex
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Posted: January 06 2017 at 5:48pm | IP Logged Quote Rex

Thanks fellows. Hopefully it will get above freezing one of these days and I can get out of the house and do something.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: January 08 2017 at 9:27pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Rex, lately I've been getting all nostalgic on old style .38Spl standard loads from old. Ideal 358250 RN and 360271 SWC. Both predate everything else I got being designed in 1903 & 1904. Like yourself I've got so many options in loads it's downright goofy! And when it warms up in a few days I'm gonna pop a few too.

You be sure to give us a report on your test loads.

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Rex
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Posted: January 09 2017 at 7:50am | IP Logged Quote Rex

Wade, I don't need full bore anything but I like a bit more than .38 special. That is why I quit shooting .22 handguns, it took a whole box of shells to give the satisfaction a few harder slaps to the hand did.
If it warms enough, I'm going to try some 12.5 2400 loads in a .357 case and see what that does. I haven't found a real bad load for the revolver, just need to find one that is right for me. I'll try both of my new moulds but the 429 is easier to cast in cold weather than the 446. Unheated garage and lot more shoulders to keep sharp on the 446. That mould likes a bit more care with temperature.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: January 09 2017 at 9:02am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Gotcha. Understand your logic. And an unheated garage in these temperatures would make casting difficult. 12.5gr of 2400 is a stout load with 429's. Oughta give ya a pretty good slap in the ole mitt! Hopefully it'll warn up there enough to go test em out. We're gonna be in the upper 50's today. Will likely go shoot a bit. My .45ACP is calling to me again as is that old school single action in .38Spl!

Yeah, my reason for loading all my .38Spl cases to standard velocity and under is due to having two of my revolvers chambered in .38Spl and neither being rated for +P levels. The .357mag single action and the levergun can handle any heavier loads in a .38Spl case but I'm not going to load em above standard velocity. Even though I label all loads on the box or bag, I do carry several loads in loops, speed loaders, and dumps. So to 100% avoid a hot round in a weaker weapon all my hot stuff is in mag cases. My Colt Richards & Mason Conversion model is a fantastic shooting weapon and I'm not about to damage it with a hot round. Plus I enjoy loading my old school stuff with my 310s taking my time soaking in the simpler lifestyle associated with using older gear. It's just me now and I'm in no hurry.

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Rex
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Posted: January 09 2017 at 10:52am | IP Logged Quote Rex


Good logic there.
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Paul B.
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Posted: January 09 2017 at 1:41pm | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

"Plus I enjoy loading my old school stuff with my 310s taking my time
soaking in the simpler lifestyle associated with using older gear. It's
just me now and I'm in no hurry."

You're a man after my own heart. On days when modern life gripes my
gut. I'll take a few Lyman #311291's already cast up and load a box of
30-30 ammo with the old 310 tool. He only part that stays modern is I
use my RCBS powder measure. I just do not trust dippers. Then, a
long walk out in the desert looking for some poor jack rabbits to harass
or other targets of opportunity. I've nailed a coyote or two that were
either too stupid to run or just too curious.
I've taken a few deer that way as well during the season.   
I call it back it time therapy.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: January 09 2017 at 8:11pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Back in Time Therapy has a good ring to it.

An early 60's Lyman single cavity 452374 mould arrived today. Casts great. Figured best thing to do is load up a few with the 310. My measure of choice is a 1903 mfg'd Ideal No.5 powder measure. Ridiculously smooth operation. Definitely back in time.

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JimH
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Posted: January 19 2017 at 8:17am | IP Logged Quote JimH

Not a dumb question at all.

I find in the .44s that quite a bit less powder in the .44 Spl. Case will push the same bullet (in the same .44 Magnum gun) at the same speed...almost 2 gr. difference.

OTOH, it does depend on the seating depth.

The classic Thompson SWC (Skeeter's favorite) was designed to crimp in the forward groove for a .357 and the rear groove for a .38 Spl. case and give the same internal case capacity.

I don't have that mold but after all these years I see the need for one!

Jim

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BAGTIC
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Posted: February 14 2017 at 11:43am | IP Logged Quote BAGTIC

Shouldn't be any velocity loss if you remember to seat the bullet so the .357 cased cartridge has the same COL as a .38 Special cased round.
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Posted: February 18 2017 at 2:51am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Curious about how it works and a damned good question.
I understand the importance of seating depth.
I got a feeling that equal depth with the same bullet
and powder but in different casing may make a
difference but how much? I am thinking esp in the 41
Mag vs 41 Spl but the applications in 38 vs 357, 44
Spl vs 44 Mag and to a lesser degree due to seating
depth 45 ACP/45 S&W vs 45 Colt?
Not only velocity but pressure. Not due to concerns
about Max pressure but wanting some knowledge about
just what we are dealing with.

Great question Rex

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BAGTIC
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Posted: February 18 2017 at 1:06pm | IP Logged Quote BAGTIC

What matters is the net case capacity, the capacity to the base of the bullet. With straight cases if the bullet is seated to produce the sale COL the net capacity will be the same. Assuming one is using the same powder and bullet the pressures will be very nearly the same.

The difference will be in bullet travel before the bullet engages the rifling.

The main problem is that seating a bullet deeper means the crimp may not align with the crimp rove on the bullet. With a lead bullet one can crimp directly into the bullet ignoring the bullet groove. With jacketed bullets I roll a new crimp groove into the bullet assuming there is enough parallel shank left before the beginning of the ogive.

With single shots crimps are not needed and with some very light bullets it is possible to seat the bullet so its tip is even or even below the front of the case. I seat round ball light loads with the ball seated directly on the powder (compressed) for quiet pest loads.
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