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Rex
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Posted: March 12 2017 at 12:15pm | IP Logged Quote Rex

I read a lot about sizing cast a .oo1 over cylinder throat size. To my way of thinking the throat is the final sizing die ahead of the forcing cone so is there any reason at all to size more than the cylinder throats?
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Ham Gunner
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Posted: March 12 2017 at 2:35pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

Rex, I would think that the charge will obturate the cylinder throat with it's jack hammer blow to the lead bullet so any further sizing would just cause more pressure and possible lead build up on the throat surface.

I have always read that the proper fitting bullet should only need a slight bit of finger pressure to cause it to pass through the cylinder throat and assumed that an almost gas proof seal would be accomplished before the bullet exited the throat.

However, I have read where many do not even size their bullets and are happy as long as they will not easily pass through the throats by hand. They are happy with their results as well, so I think we can easily over think the throat issue sometimes.

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JD45
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Posted: March 12 2017 at 5:40pm | IP Logged Quote JD45

You are correct. And why does Ruger insist on squeezing the hell out of .45 bullets before they hit the barrel?
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Buffalogun
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Posted: March 13 2017 at 6:01pm | IP Logged Quote Buffalogun

Rex,

I think it really comes down to what works and what doesn't. Trial and error is the only way to know.

Most authorities have stated sizing a bullet down more than .002" will distort it and accuracy goes down the drain.

If the bullets are sized less than throat diameter, there is gas leakage down the sides of the bullets unless they are soft enough to obturate. A hard bullet sized smaller than throat diam. may not obturate and will cause leading.

I like to use a cast bullet that drops a little larger than throat diam. and let the throat do the sizing. Provided the throats match up well with the groove diam. of the barrel.

I have a Lyman lubrisizer, but find it easier to use LEE's sizing dies, if for no other reason than to just put on gas checks.


JD.....Ruger is probably rolling in high cotton! I think they probably sell every revolver they make. Most people who buy handguns shoot them very little and probably think they are lousy shots. They probably don't suspect the gun has problems.

Mike

Edited by Buffalogun on March 13 2017 at 6:04pm


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noylj
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Posted: March 21 2017 at 12:50am | IP Logged Quote noylj

NO, the "rule" is that the bullet needs to at least a snug slip fit in the
cylinder's throats and at least 0.001" larger than the actual barrel groove
diameter.
If the throats are smaller than the groove diameter, you'll have to get the
throats opened up.
I found back about 1974 that unsized bullets were more accurate in my
Browning HP, Colt 1911, .38 Spl, .357 Mag, and .44 Rem Mag.
I ordered bullet size dies that were either nominal bullet size as-cast or
0.001" larger, as all I had was a Lubri-sizer to apply the lube. Then I went to
pan lubing and then tumble lubing.
If you shoot an alloy less that 15 BHN, you can usually use a bullet that is
0.001" larger than actual bullet groove diameter and if you are using a 15-22
BHN alloy, you will usually do better with 0.002" over actual groove diameter.
Personally, I recommend you try as-cast, tumble lube in LLA or 45/45/10
from White Labs and see how they work.
If you have to size (and I can't imagine having to after more than 40 years of
NOT sizing), get a pass-through sizer like Lee or Star.
For me, sizing is so '60s...

Edited by noylj on March 21 2017 at 12:54am


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joed
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Posted: March 22 2017 at 6:24pm | IP Logged Quote joed

I was taught that a lead bullet should need a gentle push to come
out the throat.   That has held true in all my guns.   I was told that
this is one of the biggest things to obtaining accuracy from a lead
bullet.

The only gun I ever owned that was horrible was a S&W Mtn gun in
.45 Colt.   Never could figure that one out, it was a shotgun.

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Reloader06
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Posted: March 23 2017 at 7:11pm | IP Logged Quote Reloader06

Noylj nailed it.

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mikld
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Posted: March 24 2017 at 2:07pm | IP Logged Quote mikld

I don't like "push through", "drop through", "snug fit", "slip fit",
etc. mainly because they are subjective and not real
measurements. It's no big deal to measure the cylinder throats
and size the bullets to the same diameter, using real tools
giving real, factual measurements. In my experience this works
quite well and anything larger than throat diameter is swaged as
it passes through the throat and most of the time sprays lead on
the cylinder face, frame and forcing cone.

Edited by mikld on March 24 2017 at 2:09pm


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Old Ranger
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Posted: April 21 2017 at 11:04am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Been reading Complete Guide to Handloading by Philip Sharpe (copyright 1937 with supplemental data 1953).
Interesting data from an earlier era that details on lube and sizing beginning on 81. Beginning with page 95 there's detailed discussion on sizing, base shape, and overall bullet design. Of interest is on page 98 where "the law" of bullet diameter is discussed and broken down with some eye opening details. Raises questions about oversized bullets and how they may not be all that efficient and create more problems than they solve. One of which challenges the two to three thousands of an inch or greater oversizing of a cast bullet in place of bore diameter jacketed bullet filling the grooves. Asking why is it necessary to push a larger softer bullet when a far harder and stiffer jacketed one functions well without being oversized. A fascinating study.

My apologies for not providing a link to Sharpe's book, but I know little to nothing in computer skills applied to this stinking phone I use for internet stuff and such. In fact, I don't even remember where I had found it... sorry. Perhaps a younger man here with a real computer and the skills to use it can locate Phil Sharpe's book and provide a link to it.

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Ronnieboy
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Posted: April 21 2017 at 12:11pm | IP Logged Quote Ronnieboy

couldn't find a working link, seen prices as high as $500.00. Copy on Amazon for sale.    good luck with this one.     

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noylj
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Posted: April 21 2017 at 12:59pm | IP Logged Quote noylj

>I don't like "push through", "drop through", "snug fit", "slip fit",
etc. mainly because they are subjective

Yes, but any one can do it without any special equipment. Most learned snug
and loose by kindergarten.

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Old Ranger
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Posted: April 21 2017 at 2:06pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Complete Guide to handloading - Philip B. Sharpe - Castpicswww.castpics.net/subsite2/ClassicWorks/complete_guid e_to...Complete Guide to handloading - Philip B. Sharpe - Castpics

I think I might have it here. I don't know if it'll work but you can go to that site and download it maybe? But that's where I found it a few years ago. I've got it on my tablet gizmo and read it often along with other stuff.

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Old Ranger
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Posted: April 23 2017 at 10:16am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Many of my moulds are old Ideal and a couple old Lyman made models. In the .38 class they all drop from the mould at, or close to .360" and thus require sizing to function. So while sizing to .358" they're lubed in the old 450 unit at the same time. However, I've two moulds that drop right at .358" right from the mould. One, a Lyman 358665 (158gr RNFP Cowboy bullet) and the other a RCBS 38-140-CM (140gr RNFP Cowboy bullet). With the bullets being of proper size as cast I simply tumble lube them with LLA and load.

My .38 Spl loads are all at or below standard pressure and velocity due to having two revolvers chambered for that round that are neither of new design and thus not robust enough to take the beating of +P level loads. So as not to risk damaging them, all my .38's are not loaded hot. And the result of this I'm able to run either bullet with a single light coating of LLA with little or no leading whatsoever. Accuracy with either is from acceptable to exceptional depending upon the load combination used. Either way, both moulds cast faster having from light to moderate beveled bases and no sharp edges. They drop cleanly from the mould upon opening. Despite being two cavities they are able to create a pile of bullets quickly. Combined with easy lubrication by T L, I can have lubed and aged bullets ready to load or store in two days and not lift a finger beyond casting and a quick TL after cooling.

Though I truly enjoy my oldies like the first SWC, the Ideal 360271 (cir. 1904) and the dual lube groove RN, Ideal 358250 (cir 1903) they require careful casting, sizing, and lubing that take time to complete. I still cast and load them, but at a rate of about 1 in 8 compared to the LLA lubed RNFP bullets that drop at .358" straight from the mould.
I owe my change in thinking toward the LLA and TL system to a couple of members that opened my eyes to it. Before, I was closed minded clinging to the traditional lube press method. For my fatter bullets,yes I still use it, but for as cast=proper fit, I'm 100% TL via LLA all the way! Thanks guys for the nudge in the ribs that woke me up!

Edit: I did manage to size about 75 of the ancient Ideal 360271 SWC's (not easy as they're fat!) and then squirted some LLA on em and got a thin coat TL'd onto em. So now I'm anxious to see how well a TL does with this bullet. With two lube grooves, a large square driving band and massive base, it's a tack driver with conventional sized and lubed. In the meantime I'll prep some cases as I've got a bunch cleaned but not sized and primed. That'll keep me busy.

Edited by Old Ranger on April 23 2017 at 4:13pm


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Paul B.
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Posted: April 23 2017 at 12:58pm | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

Ronnieboy wrote:
couldn't find a working link, seen prices as high
as $500.00. Copy on Amazon for sale.    good luck with this one.     


You think that's bad, see what they want for a first edition of Elmer
Keith's book Big Game Rifles or Keith's Rifles for Big game, the latter in
a first edition well into four digits if in good shape. I have both in reprints.
Well worth trying to find copies. I have Sharpe's book as well.
Paul B.
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Posted: April 23 2017 at 6:20pm | IP Logged Quote Ronnieboy

Paul, my son likes all of Jack O'Connors books and articles. He's paid bout a hundred for a couple, most in the 30's.    I try to read and learn from you guys that have read or has the books. hahah a cheapskate. hahahh.   I enjoy learning better techniques for any of my reloading.   What better way to learn than to pay attention to our history.    of course, then you gotta shoot to check if its tru. hahahah    Ron

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Old Ranger
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Posted: April 26 2017 at 9:00am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Although a cast bullet sized at .358" will NOT pass through the throats of my two .38Spl revolvers, they both shoot well with this size. Rounds sized to .357" will leave streaks of lead all up and down the barrel.
The two weapons are:
S&W M&P 4" mfg 1956 (4 screw mod)
Uberti Richards & Mason 1871 conversion 5 1/2" mfg 2015

Even though the bullet will not pass through the chamber of the cylinder on its own, they shoot with great accuracy and leave little or no lead in the bore depending upon how well the lube performs. Both above weapons have bores that mike out at .357" when slugged. This is in keeping with the "size em .001" over bore diameter" theory set down long before I appeared on the planet. With all that said I guess what I'm doing is working huh?

Oh, the old Ideal 360271 bullets I tumbled with LLA got a second coat from a new bottle I bought a couple weeks ago. For this bullet with all it's sharp edges and large bearing surface, I think it needed two coats. Now lube is visible in the two lube grooves. Whether that accounts for better lubrication or not is subjective I suppose but it makes me feel better with it that way. I suspect that the lube on the side of the bullet itself is reduced or removed during the loading when it's pressed into the cartridge. Logic would dictate that some of the lube will be displaced no matter how the bullet enters the case. Thus I'm relieved to see lube in the grooves with the second coat.

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noylj
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Posted: April 26 2017 at 11:52am | IP Logged Quote noylj

Old Ranger: yes, the bullets need to be AT LEAST a snug slip-fit in the
cylinder's throats.
Work out the COL that will chamber and then work up the load.

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Old Ranger
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Posted: April 26 2017 at 1:42pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Well the rounds don't even pass through. They stick TIGHT sized at .358" shortly after entering the throat. I mean a dead stop and no more. But they chamber well and shoot fantastic. Perhaps the throat is doing the final sizing but I get little if no lead in the bore. Tight groups and consistent without flyers. So even if this goes against the current thinking, it's working for me. I think I'm gonna leave well enough alone.

But yes, I'm a LLA convert and really enjoy how simple it really is. The two "cowboy bullets" I mentioned earlier drop right at .358" from the mould. Perfect for tumbling. Five minutes and I walk away and let em dry. Easy. Next day, second coat. A snap to do. Sure beats the old "punch, crank, lift, repeat" with the 450.
Between the 140gr and the 160gr cowboy bullets, the 140gr gets the better accuracy close and at mid range (50yds) and uses less metal too with both pistols and my carbine. The carbine also shows a particular liking to the 140gr over many others I cast. If I'm not careful I might just cast the 140gr and forget the others and the 450 lube/sizer all together.
The only other size bullet I cast is a .30cal which I lube and size in a 310 sizing chamber that's .3095" and perfect for my rifle. I gave up casting for my .44Mag and .45ACP and I've gone plated with them.

Yeppers, I'm pretty pleased with LLA and my unsized bullets. Thanks for nudging in the ribs waking me up to this stuff.

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Rex
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Posted: April 26 2017 at 3:31pm | IP Logged Quote Rex

Wade, the bullets that work best in my S&W fit just like yours. It don't seem right but they work.
I also tumble lube with White Label 45-45-10 on warm summer days, on cold days I still pan lube with my soft stuff. The tumble lube and bullets need to be warm or they get to be a mess.
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Posted: April 26 2017 at 3:36pm | IP Logged Quote dahlin

Old Ranger sounds like you got things headed in the right direction that is about the same process I use. I don't have nearly the casting experience that you have but it has worked well for me also. Randy
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