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Subject Topic: .30 Carbine v. .327 Fed Mag Blackhawks Post ReplyPost New Topic
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jski
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Posted: March 14 2017 at 1:45am | IP Logged Quote jski

Been bantering back and forth on another site about the merits of the
.30 Carbine v. the .327 Fed Mag as pistol rounds. Looking at the data it
seems apparent that the .30 Carbine is ballistically superior. Just visit
the Hodgdon reloading data website.

With a case capacity of 21 v. 19 gr of H2O, the .30 Carbine simply has
more space for more powder. And when you take into consideration the
space available after seating comparable bullets, the disparity is even
greater.

Hence, we see Buffalo Bore offering .30 Carbine rounds with 125 gr
hard cast (BHN 21), gas checked, fat nose bullets --- primarily targeting
the Blackhawk community.

My current reloading efforts focus on 115 gr. Linotype, gas checked
bullets courtesy of Montana Bullet Works.

One thing that seems universally acknowledged is the .30 Carbine
Blackhawk is accurate, VERY accurate.

Comments?

To be honest, I must admit, I'm not that experienced with the .327.

Edited by jski on March 14 2017 at 1:52am
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JD45
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Posted: March 14 2017 at 6:22am | IP Logged Quote JD45

I just want a dang .327!
You can also shoot .32 H&R mag., 32 S&W long, and 32 S&W.

More guns should be made in this caliber.
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mikld
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Posted: March 14 2017 at 10:10am | IP Logged Quote mikld

For a 30 Carbine vs .327 Fed in a Blackhawk, I would be less
concerned with the velocity differences than the cartridge type;
rimmed 327 vs. rimless 30 Carbine. While my thinking may be
off, I've read of chambering problems with the 30 Carbine in a
revolver. Could be "internet fact" as I don't know anyone that
shoots a 30 Carbine Blackhawk...

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Ham Gunner
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Posted: March 14 2017 at 1:45pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

Both Buffalo Bore and Montana Bullets are know as decent and accurate bullets. Those listed above seem to be unnecessarily hard for handgun use.

Although it can be very accurate, Linotype is also very fragile and fragments easily upon impact. Not a problem with paper punching. Hunting is another thing entirely.

I would think that a softer bullet or an alloy that does not fragment would be a better choice for hunting of course. Maybe heat treated alloy would be better for hunting if a bullet of that hardness is necessary. Buffalo Bore could be using such an alloy though.

I have never found a hardness above 15-17 BHN to be needed for any of my rifle bullets at up to and maybe slightly over 2,000 fps. The .30 carbine barely reaches that velocity in a rifle, but certainly not in a handgun.

Everyone has their own needs depending upon the intended use. I only load for possible hunting use even though I do occasionally do a bit of paper shooting so I tend to shy away from fragile alloys.

Edited by Ham Gunner on March 14 2017 at 1:55pm


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jski
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Posted: March 14 2017 at 10:03pm | IP Logged Quote jski

The M1 Carbine rifle and the .30 Carbine cartridge have for years been
subjected to often bizarre criticisms. "The round failed to penetrate
Chinese winter clothing." "The .30 Carbine Blackhawk is the loudest
handgun ever made." "There's a paucity of bullets for reloading the .30
Carbine cartridge." Etc., etc., etc.

None of which are true. BTW, my .357 Blackhawk is easily as loud as
my .30 Carbine Blackhawk.

I happened upon the gun ... the carbine by accident and fell for its fun
as a shooter and its WWII history. And was immediately assaulted with
these unfounded criticisms of the WAR BABY.

As for the Blackhawk, it's one of my favorite handguns. It's unbelievable
accurate and has great ballistics. As a matter of fact, I use it as my
home defense gun. Yes, I know it's a single action revolver.



Edited by jski on March 14 2017 at 10:16pm
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jski
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Posted: March 14 2017 at 10:12pm | IP Logged Quote jski

Ham Gunner, I've been using Linotype bullets to experiment with. It
allows me to push these bullets has hard as I please in my Blackhawk.
Not worried about brittleness. I'm punching holes in paper.

I must say I have read very positive reviews of Linotype bullets for
hunting.

Edited by jski on March 14 2017 at 10:13pm
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REM1875
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Posted: March 15 2017 at 2:53am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

I have a least one "type" of most 327 ever made and I
am enamored with the round.
In a the smaller guns she is stout. In the bigger ones
she is very manageable and accurate.
I will be doing more testing of the 327 against the 30
carb revolver in the coming months.
Here is what we do know- Single 7 vs Blackhawk 30
carb.
We are first dealing with a .308 vs a .312. Most
bullets in these 2 classes are different. Size, shape,
weight- one made for a rifle primarily and one for
primarily revolvers.
Perhaps a better comparison would be the 32-20 vs the
327 but the 32-20 is loaded way down now for good
reason.
The recoil and report of the 30 carb is stouter even
in the heavier Blackhawk and yes the 30 carb loaded
with the right powder is terribly loud as various
neighbors have 'mentioned' to me over the decades.
Louder than most other things I put down range- it is
a hell of a crack.
Most of my 30 carb loads have been so I can use them
in rifle and revolver so function was important- I
have just started loading some revolver only rounds.
The 327 seems more inherently accurate.
I hope to have more info this spring if things go
well- I am also hoping to have a Henry rifle by then
too in 327.
I really really like the 327 and all I can shoot in
it. The real surprise was the 32 ACP as I did not
realize it had a slight rim too it. Firing it next to
the 327 will have you wondering about the value of the
32 ACP and that is kinda sad cause the 32 ACP is a
good round.
I found some 125 gr cast 32-20 rounds and have been
using those now in the 327 and so far I like them.

TRIM ALL 30 CARB BRASS-
This is most important
I recommend the new Lee trimmer that fits in your
press after trying most of the others out there.



As for the 30 carb's bad rep in Korea it didn't seem
to have the same bad rep in WWII and it was basically
the same ammo and same weapon and this is from vets of
both conflicts I talked too so I am curious?



Edited by REM1875 on March 15 2017 at 3:07am


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jski
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Posted: March 15 2017 at 3:14am | IP Logged Quote jski

Rem1875, I suspect the reason the Chinese soldiers didn't fall down
when shot is US soldier missed. And what better excuse than "I hit
the guy but the bullet bounced off!"

I've seen so many YouTube videos of people trying to duplicate this
nonsense and it's shown to be a farce. In one they actually froze
several inches of canvas soaked in water, backed it up by a large wood
block, and finally a gallon milk jug filled with water. He shot from ~100
yards back. The jug exploded.

Edited by jski on March 15 2017 at 3:23am
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REM1875
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Posted: March 15 2017 at 3:39am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

jski

It wasn't that the guys were not hitting them- it was
the fact they were not stopping them when hit. Kinda
like the 38 Colts and the Moros on the Philippines.
Larger calibers or heavier rounds (30-06 and 8mm in
Korea) were stopping them- dead in their tracks.
I have talked to guys with the same stories about Iraq
and Afghanistan and they said those hit with th 308s
died while those hit with the 5.56s took several
rounds.

Don't get me wrong- I would not want to be on the
receiving end of a 30 Carb.

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RT58
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Posted: March 15 2017 at 8:06am | IP Logged Quote RT58

The .30 M1 in a carbine is a handy, light woods rifle. It's not a .308 or .30-06, but was never meant to be a main battle rifle. At close range it is pretty effective, but beyond 30 yds. it's not a great performer.

The .30 M1 in a revolver is a poor choice, due to the fact that it's a tapered cartridge. I had a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 M1 and couldn't get rid of it soon enough. They had a reputation at that time of having rough chambers that required the shooter to pound the fired cases out with a hammer.

I've never had a .327. I wouldn't mind playing around with one, but I'm not paying for one.

Comparing ballistics is fine, but not everyone is into the "faster is better" way of thinking. Handguns that are strong enough to handle either the .30 M1 or the .327 Federal are big enough to handle a .357 magnum cartridge, which when I compared the ballistics between it and the .30 M1 won.
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jski
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Posted: March 15 2017 at 10:33am | IP Logged Quote jski

REM1875, I still believe the most likely explanation is
they simply missed. Otherwise, we're left with Chinese
soldiers being drilled thru the gut by a 30 caliber bullet
and the accompanying hydraulic shock ... and nothing
happens. I don't believe it.
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jski
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Posted: March 15 2017 at 10:40am | IP Logged Quote jski

RT58, I've had my .30 Carbine Blackhawk for 13 years
now. No problems.

Well, not exactly no problems: On one of the chambers
when the hammer was cocked, the cylinder wouldn't lock
tight. I returned it to Ruger. Two weeks later I get an
email telling me the gun is "irreparable". And would I
like a brand spanking new replacement. Well, hell yes!

So now I have a brand spanking new .30 Carbine
Blackhawk. Neither the old nor the new had or now has
case ejection problems.


Edited by jski on March 15 2017 at 10:42am
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RT58
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Posted: March 15 2017 at 5:21pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

I've heard some people say the rough cylinders were intentional because Ruger was trying to keep the case from slamming against the recoil shield on firing. But since the condition wasn't found on every .30 M1 made at the time, I think it was due more to their lousy QC at the time.

Hydraulic shock is a term coined by gun magazine writers that was nothing more than hype to sell magazines.

Also, it would be entirely possible for a Chinese soldier, or any other soldier, to be shot with a .30 M1 round and not show any immediate reaction. It is a poor ballistic performer at distance and results in lower trauma levels.
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Posted: March 15 2017 at 7:40pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

The stories of Chinese soldiers being hit and staying in the fight are because of the heavy clothing they wore because of the cold and the fact that those clths were often ice encrusted which slowed those little bullets down. There's no doubt that the .30 Carbine is a piss poor stopped with FMJ bullets, modern hollow points are a different story altogether.

I have a big white tail rack on the wall my wife's grandpa killed with an M1 Carbine. It would be a big deer in the Midwest, an absolute monster in sand country S.C. where he killed it. The old man hunted with an M1 Carbine, I used to cringe when he talked about it, but he had carried one in WWII and liked it. One shot took care of that bruiser, can't argue it.

I recently inherited one of the Blackhawks in .30 Carbine I'm gonna work with. All my loading for the .30 Carbine so far has been in a surplus carbine. If I loaded it with modern hollow point bullets, I would feel very well armed with it inside 150 yards or so. It has the energy of a .357 magnum and would carry it a lot farther. It would sure beat hell out of any handgun.

For a revolver cartridge, I think the .327 would be better. I really thing a rimmed, straight walled case is going to be better than the tapered rimless one.

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jski
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Posted: March 15 2017 at 11:52pm | IP Logged Quote jski

When you watch a bullet penetrate a block of bio-gel you can watch the
sock wave move throughout the entire block. That wave is hydraulic
shock and it tears a much larger hole than simply could be accounted
for by the bullets diameter. This is created by the energy imparted from
the bullet into the gel. And a .30 Carbine round fired from an M1
Carbine has more energy at 100 yards that a .357 at muzzle... both
using 110 gr. bullets.

That is very real.

BTW, the very slight tapering of the.30 Carbine case is intended to
make it easier to feed in the carbine rifle. A much more extreme
example of this is the Russki 7.62x39mm for the AK47.




Edited by jski on March 16 2017 at 12:18am
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jski
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Posted: March 16 2017 at 12:04am | IP Logged Quote jski

I believe Buffalo Bore has come up with a very attractive round for
hunting with the M1 Carbine:

BUFFALO BORE FULL POWER+ U.S. 30 M1 CARBINE AMMUNITION
125 grain Hard Cast, Flat Nose, Gas Checked @ 2,100 fps

Even though when I spoke with Buffalo Bore Tim, he seemed to
suggest that this round is primarily targeted at Blackhawk owners.

Edited by jski on March 16 2017 at 12:12am
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Posted: March 16 2017 at 4:42am | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

That's a hot load. With the way original M1 Carbines have skyrocketed in value, I wouldn't shoot that stuff in mine. A Blackhawk would probably handle it fine, though.

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jski
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Posted: March 16 2017 at 6:41am | IP Logged Quote jski

The .30 Carbine Blackhawk is a tank. It's built on the same
platform as the .44 Mag. The Buffalo Bore ammo wouldn't
even begin to stress it. Not sure what it'd take to do
that?
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RT58
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Posted: March 16 2017 at 10:09am | IP Logged Quote RT58

jski wrote:
When you watch a bullet penetrate a block of bio-gel you can watch the
sock wave move throughout the entire block. That wave is hydraulic
shock and it tears a much larger hole than simply could be accounted
for by the bullets diameter. This is created by the energy imparted from
the bullet into the gel. And a .30 Carbine round fired from an M1
Carbine has more energy at 100 yards that a .357 at muzzle... both
using 110 gr. bullets.

That is very real.

BTW, the very slight tapering of the.30 Carbine case is intended to
make it easier to feed in the carbine rifle. A much more extreme
example of this is the Russki 7.62x39mm for the AK47.


That was the story the gun writers used because it fit their argument that fast light bullets were better than heavy slow ones. I remember reading one magazine article stating all the "facts" why the 9mm was better than the .45, then the very next article, written by the exact same author, gave all the "facts" why the .45 Thompson was better than the .30 M1 Carbine. The two articles were nothing but contradictions of each other.

They got the idea from watching bullets hit ballistic gel and watching it jiggle like jello and leave a large temporary cavity. Unfortunately, they never thought about checking with real medical experts. Living tissue is very elastic and can take a considerable amount of trauma, compared to what a hand held firearm can deliver. The theory that hydraulic shock waves from kinetic energy will incapacitate someone has been disproven time and again, all they had to do was look. But that wouldn't sell magazines.

But, I'm not here to change your opinion. As long as you're happy with what you are doing, that's what matters.
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Posted: March 16 2017 at 5:46pm | IP Logged Quote KinleyWater

JD45 wrote:
I just want a dang .327!
You can also shoot .32 H&R mag., 32 S&W long, and 32 S&W.

More guns should be made in this caliber.


JD, if it makes you feel better, Henry now makes the Big Boy and Big Boy Carbine in .327/ .21 H&R!

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