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KinleyWater
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Posted: April 28 2017 at 1:34pm | IP Logged Quote KinleyWater

Amen, gents. I see nothing manly about abusing ones self. I will look at working up the Speical brass with 7 grains Unique, and will lay into the Blue Dot for the Magnums with the fresh stock of Nosler 240 JHPs, I acquired.

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pondoro
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Posted: April 29 2017 at 3:28am | IP Logged Quote pondoro

richhodg66 wrote:
Nothing wrong with loading down a
big bore. Like Guy said, even when it's loaded down, a
.44 mag or .45 Colt is still a formidable thing.

I shot the Elmer load a bit with the RCBS Kieth bullet
and 20 grains of 2400 a few years ago, accurate but
unpleasant and also unnecessarily powerful for nearly
everything I'd likely use a pistol for.


"10% Less than Elmer" is my mantra. Elmer blew up guns
so that the manufacturers would make them strong enough
for the rest of us.
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KinleyWater
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Posted: April 29 2017 at 5:02am | IP Logged Quote KinleyWater

pondoro wrote:
Elmer blew up guns
so that the manufacturers would make them strong enough
for the rest of us.


Um, no thank you.

Maybe if I had unlimited financial resources - an didn't mind the physical dangers...

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Paul B.
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Posted: April 29 2017 at 9:39am | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

pondoro wrote:
richhodg66 wrote:
Nothing wrong with loading
down a
big bore. Like Guy said, even when it's loaded down, a
.44 mag or .45 Colt is still a formidable thing.

I shot the Elmer load a bit with the RCBS Kieth bullet
and 20 grains of 2400 a few years ago, accurate but
unpleasant and also unnecessarily powerful for nearly
everything I'd likely use a pistol for.


"10% Less than Elmer" is my mantra. Elmer blew up guns
so that the manufacturers would make them strong enough
for the rest of us.


For one thing, the 20 gr. load and Elmer's bullet is NOT Elmer's load.
His load was 22.0 gr. of H2400 and his bullet. Stout, powerful and
deadly. Took a few deer with it and it really did the job.
Check with some of the earlier load manuals and you'll see if as the
considered maximum.
H2400 is no more. Now it's A2400, "A" being Alliant. The "H" was
2400 made by Hercules. Hercules got out of the gunpowder business
in order to devote to full time development of solid rocket fuel. Alliant
took the powder making business. Alliant claims their Bullseye, Unique
and 2400 as exactly the same as the Hercules version. Damned if I
know but I know Elmer's load (22.0 gr.) of the Alliant was much hotter
in my .44's that the Hercules version. I've sensed the same thing in
Bullseye and Unique as well.
Interesting to note the ammo for the .357 Mag. and .44 Mags was
slightly lowered in power at about the same time. Seems the .357
ammo was damaging the S&W M19/66s and the full power .44s were
tearing up the M29/629s. I can attest to the latter in .44 Mag. and I had
to send mine back to S&W twice because factory .44s and Elmer's
loads tore the hell out of then. The design for the "N" frame S&W is
from 1905. I understand the later models had their internals beefed up.
My 629 was one of the very fist to hit Tucson and I found it at Monkey
Wards. My daughter worked there so I got it at her employees
discount. Damn thing is downright fragile.
Note that at the same time ammo was download a bit, so was loading
data for the .357 and .44 Mags. Original .357 Mag. data was 15.5 gr. of
H2400 and was a very good load. These days I load 14.0 gr. A2400
with the Lyman #358156 gas check bullet. The .44 gets 20 gr. of
A2400 and Elmer's bullet. Those are shot in stout Ruger guns. The 629
is semi-retired and will shoot Skeeter Skelton equivalent velocity loads
in magnum brass.
Paul B.
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pondoro
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Posted: April 29 2017 at 12:41pm | IP Logged Quote pondoro

KinleyWater wrote:
pondoro wrote:
Elmer blew up
guns
so that the manufacturers would make them strong
enough
for the rest of us.


Um, no thank you.

Maybe if I had unlimited financial resources - an
didn't mind the physical dangers...


My full quote said, "10% less than Elmer..." I
don't want to blow up guns either. But Elmer convinced
the manufacturers to make the 44 Magnum and beef their
guns up enough to be safe. So if I stay below him I'm
good. (I also stay below the current manuals...)
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KinleyWater
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Posted: April 29 2017 at 5:06pm | IP Logged Quote KinleyWater

Tracking Pondoro - I didn't mean to misquote or imply otherwise. I was trying to say "better him than me".   

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RT58
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Posted: April 30 2017 at 9:07am | IP Logged Quote RT58

Elmer liked to hunt large, four legged animals at long range and wanted handguns that were up to that task. He was also a popular writer and his articles sold a lot of products, especially S&Ws, and I'm sure he didn't have to worry about blowing up "their" guns.

My main interest in handguns were to shoot two legged varmints at much shorter ranges, so my loading practices are very much different than his.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: April 30 2017 at 9:39am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Yup, way back when I was permitted to carry my 4" M29, it was loaded with 250gr Keith SWC and 19 gr of H2400 and a mag primer. That load dropped two with one round a piece and another with two rounds while working the street long ago. Later when the PD said no more big guns, I switched to a 4" M28 and loaded 160gr 358429HP with 14gr H2400. That worked too. Then the auto craze arrived and we stopped carrying real guns.

But back on topic. I agree with the "Not every load must be fully loaded to the max" theory. A few months back I hit a coyote with a 240 FP plated .44Mag loaded with just 7gr of W231. From a distance of 35' he took the round in the chest and tried to run but keeled over dead. I get the same result with a fully loaded .45ACP (which as Guy pointed out earlier to being about the same powerwise)
Yeah, not everything has to be and engine smashing, blockbuster, take down a B52 on a takeoff roll load. Moderate velocity with a big heavy bullet IS effective. And easier on you and the weapon too.

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joed
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Posted: April 30 2017 at 12:28pm | IP Logged Quote joed

My favorite load in the .44 mag is just about 15.0 16.0 gr of 2400
with the 240 gr Keith bullet. I get about 1050 fps with this load, it's
all I need.

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REM1875
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Posted: April 30 2017 at 5:43pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Back to your original statement - all brass is not the
same. I learned the hard way when I first started
loading 44-40 in some tight chambers on an 1875 Rem
replica- .429 bullets in Rem brass would go into the
chambers but W-W loaded the same way with same
components would not. Starline later on proved to be
even more robust.
The 50 A.E. is even worse. One brand tightly holds the
bullets- the next loaded the same exact way with same
components except for brass on the same reloading
equipment has bullet shift when firing (out of a
revolver) And the third brand of brass using same
components gives me all sorts of headaches because the
brass is thicker.
So it may not all be how hot the load is but also
about the difference in brass.
Do I sort all my brass? Some calibers yes and yet 9mm,
9mak, 380, 40 S&W and 45 ACP - chances are no - hell
no.

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KinleyWater
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Posted: April 30 2017 at 5:50pm | IP Logged Quote KinleyWater

REM - that is interesting. I hadn't given much thought to different manufacturers of brass and their variances.

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