Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  

Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc
Handguns
 Handloads.Com Forum : Handguns
Subject Topic: Shooting Holes in Wounding Theories Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
jski
Newcomer


Avatar

Joined: March 12 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 25
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 26 2017 at 10:07pm | IP Logged Quote jski

I was going back and forth with some reloaders about what makes the
most effective cartridge: fat & slow v. fast & small. And while doing
some web searches I happened upon this website:


Shooting Holes in Wounding
Theories


A piece of the article:

      I lump together "energy dump" theories, the concept of
"overpenetration" and the arguments involving the term "hydrostatic
shock" because they all tend to share a common idea, which is that the
abrupt deposition of the kinetic energy of the bullet is responsible for its
lethality. I don't wish to be misunderstood and we are in danger of this
discussion being taken for a mere matter of semantics, so let me be
clear: the salient point is that the adherents of these views are fixated
on the idea of the rapid transfer of energy to the target, rather than on
the mechanics of the work being done by the bullet in terms of
wounding (i.e., penetration and cavitation). Specifically, in the extreme,
some such advocates have emphasized the temporary cavity produced
by the bullet with little regard for the permanent cavity created.      

Edited by jski on March 26 2017 at 10:17pm
Back to Top View jski's Profile Search for other posts by jski
 
STCM(SW)
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: February 17 2007
Location: Eastern Washington
Posts: 8862
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 26 2017 at 10:46pm | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

I've have only 2 deer I had to use coup de grâce ,
Both were shots that put the deer down in shock.
7MM magnum & 25-06 both at over a hundred yards.
You never know what the reaction will been on a live critter.
BTW, both calibers have dropped deer in there tracks
with no follow up shots....

Edited by STCM(SW) on March 26 2017 at 10:48pm


__________________
NRA Life Benefactor Member
USN MCPO Ret. 1960-1992
Si vis pacem, Para Bellum!
Back to Top View STCM(SW)'s Profile Search for other posts by STCM(SW)
 
joed
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: February 18 2003
Location: Grafton, OH
Posts: 11666
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 27 2017 at 3:05am | IP Logged Quote joed

Tough to call.   I've seen hits that killed animals on the spot and I've
see similar hits leave them to run off.   I think there is more involved
then just the bullet, like the makeup of the animal and whether the
bullet hits bone.      

But, I'm no ballistics expert either.    

__________________
The 6 gun was once as common as the cellphone is today, and just as annoying when it went off in the theater.
Back to Top View joed's Profile Search for other posts by joed
 
The_Shadow
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: January 12 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 5898
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 27 2017 at 6:54am | IP Logged Quote The_Shadow

The last deer I shot at 140 yards with a muzzle loader
was hit squarely in the right side chest, broke ribs
going in, punched both lungs and nicked the heart,
broke a rib farside and bullet stopped under the hide
just behind left leg.

The bullet was a 40 cal. 200 grain XTP the started at
2000 fps and would have been about 1220 fps at impact.

This deer ran 130 yards down the hill and crashed in a
thicket.

You just never know what will happen with an animal
like deer.

__________________
The
Shadow

LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Menber
BASS Life Menber
Back to Top View The_Shadow's Profile Search for other posts by The_Shadow
 
RT58
Senior Member




Joined: August 04 2009
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 314
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 27 2017 at 7:00am | IP Logged Quote RT58

Be careful with that site. I was on there a year or so ago and got a virus from one of the links.

The issue of fat and slow vs. small and fast was a big selling point of gun magazines and their advertisers and the "experts" that wrote them knew little to nothing about the subject. There is more to it than that.

But it did result in everyone thinking they need the most expensive ammo money can buy. That was their goal.

Edited by RT58 on March 27 2017 at 7:38am
Back to Top View RT58's Profile Search for other posts by RT58
 
Ham Gunner
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Ozark, Missouri
Posts: 5239
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 27 2017 at 2:40pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

I did not read any of the articles in the link, but have read very, very, many articles over the years about the subject, to include quite a few that included medical input. Granted, many were likely written by self proclaimed experts behind a desk instead of someone with more field experience. I can say that there seems to be those that are fixated on one extreme or the other as far as which is the better type of wound for stopping either the animal or the human. But I find the larger slower bullet theory more believable.

From practical experience with years of hunting animals with handguns, rifles, as well as arrows I have my own opinions and they favor larger caliber bullets that penetrate completely with the same for arrows that penetrate and leave massive blood trails. Blood trails normally are increased by complete penetration.

Small animals are certainly instantly stopped by fast moving varmint type bullets, but in order for the same reaction to occur in the larger animals to include humans, a progressively larger scale bullet needs to be tossed into the equation to get similar results. A 9mm with even expanding type bullets used on a human subject just does not equate to a woodchuck being taken by a fast moving .22 expanding bullet. Perhaps a .40 S&W or larger bullet at similar expansion levels in a human would give fast stopping power. I guess one would just have to go with historical data of gun fights to see just were the point of instant stop happens.

I do not have experience with the human stopping subject, but with the taking of game animals I certainly feel that I would have enough to at least have an opinion. I feel that I would be in the larger caliber and slower bullet side of the debate. I prefer the two holes for blood loss as well as for easier tracking. I have had to track a few animals for quite some distance in the past with shots using both very high velocity hunting type expanding bullets as well as harder and slower moving large diameter flat pointed cast bullets. I would not claim that any were because of poor shots and certainly the larger diameter bullets allowed me to track a whole lot less distance.

I never lost an animal shot with large flat nosed cast bullets. I can not say the same for expanding jacketed bullets that were even fired at close range so inaccurate shots just could not be to blame.

I have found problems in certain cases with what I would have thought to be stopping shots, so my opinion is that nothing is set in stone. But I have had a whole lot less problems with the larger slower bullets as far as recovering my game closer in without undo tracking and seemingly more lethal and human kills.

So I guess I just do not buy into the more energy dumped makes for a better killing shot theory. Shot placement would be a better thing to concentrate on than total dumping of the bullets energy.

I remember one article that I read that was written by an active hunting Surgeon. He believed that if an animal, or likely a human as well, was struck by a bullet during the high pressure point of heart beat and the bullet struck a major artery, that more stopping power would be likely because of extreme hydrostatic pressure to the brain through the circulatory system. Perhaps a stunned animal that did not react by running until it died but rather just fell over and likely died about as fast as one that ran farther away with the same shot placement.

Edited by Ham Gunner on March 27 2017 at 2:52pm


__________________
73 de n0ubx Rick - NRA BENEFACTOR LIFE MEMBER/VFW LIFE MEMBER - A government big enough to GIVE you
everything you want, is strong enough to TAKE everything you have. - Thomas Jefferson

Back to Top View Ham Gunner's Profile Search for other posts by Ham Gunner
 
nhblaze
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: February 02 2010
Location: Newport
Posts: 566
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 28 2017 at 7:50am | IP Logged Quote nhblaze

Ham Gunner wrote:



Shot placement would be a better thing to concentrate on than total dumping of the bullets energy.



All good info Ham Gunner.
This is the most important thing,
get the bullet in the right spot !

There is no magic bullet or handload,
even if we all strive to find one.

__________________
Ruger Blackhawk proudly made
in Newport NH
Back to Top View nhblaze's Profile Search for other posts by nhblaze
 
M700
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: June 12 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 5751
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 28 2017 at 10:28am | IP Logged Quote M700

nhblaze wrote:
Ham Gunner wrote:



Shot placement would be a better thing to concentrate on than total dumping of the bullets energy.



All good info Ham Gunner.
This is the most important thing,
get the bullet in the right spot !

There is no magic bullet or handload,
even if we all strive to find one.


I was just getting up on my "shot placement" soap box when I saw that Ham had beaten me to it.

Like many cops, I've had the pleasure (?) of investigating a number of shootings, mostly handguns. Death and injuries by .22, .380, .38 Special, .357 mag, 9mm, .40 & .45 for sure. Probably forgetting one or two.

Death and serious injury was most common when the shot placement was right. Hollow points inflicted more damage, but even non-expanding bullets kill quickly when the brain is hit.

I'm sold on hollow point or other fast-expanding bullets for self-defense, but in my experience, Shot Placement trumps everything else.

Regards, Guy
Back to Top View M700's Profile Search for other posts by M700
 
joed
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: February 18 2003
Location: Grafton, OH
Posts: 11666
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 28 2017 at 3:10pm | IP Logged Quote joed

Along with the others I'd rather have a heavy slow bullet then light
and fast.     When I bought a Glock 26 the clerk tried his best to sell
me some kind of a Federal SD round that shot a 95 gr bullet.   
Couldn't get me to touch that one for anything.

__________________
The 6 gun was once as common as the cellphone is today, and just as annoying when it went off in the theater.
Back to Top View joed's Profile Search for other posts by joed
 
Desert Eagle41
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: January 06 2010
Location: Buuckeye Lake, Ohio
Posts: 1418
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 28 2017 at 4:00pm | IP Logged Quote Desert Eagle41

Not trying to stir the pot or anything but nobody has mentioned the new bullet by Polycase that is designed to pass thru the target very fast causing hydro fluid trauma or a larger wound cavity by spinning very fast. Whole new approach but makes sense to me. Craig

__________________
Wall Street reports today on brisk trading 380 brass finished higher for the last 14 straight months against the euro, dollar and yen.
Back to Top View Desert Eagle41's Profile Search for other posts by Desert Eagle41
 
Ham Gunner
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Ozark, Missouri
Posts: 5239
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 28 2017 at 4:40pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

Desert Eagle41 wrote:
Polycase that is designed to pass thru the target very fast causing hydro fluid trauma or a larger wound cavity by spinning very fast. Whole new approach but makes sense to me. Craig


An over stabilized bullet that tumbles upon impact might cause a lot of damage inside. I don't know about this Polycase thing though. But then there is a lot I don't know.

__________________
73 de n0ubx Rick - NRA BENEFACTOR LIFE MEMBER/VFW LIFE MEMBER - A government big enough to GIVE you
everything you want, is strong enough to TAKE everything you have. - Thomas Jefferson

Back to Top View Ham Gunner's Profile Search for other posts by Ham Gunner
 
jski
Newcomer


Avatar

Joined: March 12 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 25
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 28 2017 at 7:16pm | IP Logged Quote jski

On another website with the same topic, I saw many variations of:

"Handguns don't produce enough velocity for hydrostatic shock to be a
factor. This seems to begin happening somewhere around 2000fps.
There are definitely things that happen with high velocity rifle cartridges
that do not with standard handgun cartridges."

And yet, on Wikipedia:

Ammunition selection for self-defense, military, and law enforcement
In self-defense, military, and law enforcement communities, opinions
vary regarding the importance of remote wounding effects in
ammunition design and selection. In his book on hostage rescuers,
Leroy Thompson discusses the importance of hydrostatic shock in
choosing a specific design of .357 Magnum and 9×19mm Parabellum
bullet. In Armed and Female, Paxton Quigley explains that hydrostatic
shock is the real source of “stopping power. Jim Carmichael, who
served as shooting editor for Outdoor Life magazine for 25 years,
believes that hydrostatic shock is important to “a more immediate
disabling effect” and is a key difference in the performance of .38
Special and .357 Magnum hollow point bullet. In “The search for an
effective police handgun,” Allen Bristow describes that police
departments recognize the importance of hydrostatic shock when
choosing ammunition. A research group at West Point suggests
handgun loads with at least 500 ft·lbf (680 J) of energy and 12 inches
(300 mm) of penetration and recommends:

"One should not be overly impressed by the propensity for shallow
penetrating loads to produce larger pressure waves. Selection criteria
should first determine the required penetration depth for the given risk
assessment and application, and only use pressure wave magnitude as
a selection criterion for loads meeting minimum penetration
requirements. Reliable expansion, penetration, feeding, and functioning
are all important aspects of load testing and selection. We do not
advocate abandoning long-held aspects of the load testing and
selection process, but it seems prudent to consider the pressure wave
magnitude along with other factors." — Courtney and Courtney

These contradict one another.

Edited by jski on March 28 2017 at 7:17pm
Back to Top View jski's Profile Search for other posts by jski
 
STCM(SW)
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: February 17 2007
Location: Eastern Washington
Posts: 8862
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 28 2017 at 7:59pm | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

The only handgun I have that I think would be devastating and a one shot stopper is my S&W 500 Magnum.
Bullet placement will over ride caliber for sure.
But can not CC it very well.

__________________
NRA Life Benefactor Member
USN MCPO Ret. 1960-1992
Si vis pacem, Para Bellum!
Back to Top View STCM(SW)'s Profile Search for other posts by STCM(SW)
 
jski
Newcomer


Avatar

Joined: March 12 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 25
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 28 2017 at 9:12pm | IP Logged Quote jski

STCM, I've always seen the 500 S&W as a niche cartridge. Just not
sure what that niche is? But my American Rifleman magazine this
month has the answer: the Big Horn model 89 500 S&W lever action.

Only problem is it's ~$2500.00.
Back to Top View jski's Profile Search for other posts by jski
 
STCM(SW)
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: February 17 2007
Location: Eastern Washington
Posts: 8862
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 28 2017 at 10:06pm | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

Niche? Maybe. But always wanted a revolver that was "The most powerful handgun in the world" Why I got my first S&W 44 Magnum. It did not live up to what Dirty Harry said....
The 500 Magnum does!   

free upload image

Fun to shoot a revolver that is more power that a lot of
rifles.....

__________________
NRA Life Benefactor Member
USN MCPO Ret. 1960-1992
Si vis pacem, Para Bellum!
Back to Top View STCM(SW)'s Profile Search for other posts by STCM(SW)
 
RT58
Senior Member




Joined: August 04 2009
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 314
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 29 2017 at 7:26am | IP Logged Quote RT58

jski wrote:
...These contradict one another.

The information you get will depend on the experience, or lack thereof, and their understanding of any research they may have done.

The idea of small and fast has been around for a very long time and was started by ammo makers trying to sell their ammo. They claimed the high energy levels caused more damage and had more "shocking power", and looking at tests on ballistic gelatin this still looks to be the case. However, real life tests and actual shootings have disclaimed these theories regardless of continuous "new and improved" changes to bullet design.

High kinetic energy, hydraulic shock, supersonic pressure waves and etc. do no make any difference. If you want to kill something, it depends on blood loss and the best way to do this is by creating a large permanent wound cavity and it is better to have an exit wound to aid in blood loss than to have a bullet not exit and deposit it's kinetic energy. In self defense situations, death isn't really the goal as is taking the fight out of the aggressor. It used to be well known that the best loads for this were large caliber, soft lead bullets of poor aerodynamic form and velocity only needed to be enough to cause reasonable penetration. Unfortunately, this has been lost to modern writers that know no different and are paid to tell us otherwise.
Back to Top View RT58's Profile Search for other posts by RT58
 
joed
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: February 18 2003
Location: Grafton, OH
Posts: 11666
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 29 2017 at 1:56pm | IP Logged Quote joed

jski wrote:
STCM, I've always seen the 500 S&W as a niche
cartridge. Just not
sure what that niche is? But my American Rifleman magazine this
month has the answer: the Big Horn model 89 500 S&W lever action.

Only problem is it's ~$2500.00.


I like the idea but not the price.   I have 3 lever guns the largest
cartridge being .35 Remington. Would like something bigger.

__________________
The 6 gun was once as common as the cellphone is today, and just as annoying when it went off in the theater.
Back to Top View joed's Profile Search for other posts by joed
 
The_Shadow
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: January 12 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 5898
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 29 2017 at 2:34pm | IP Logged Quote The_Shadow

Here are my thoughts on the current gun industry as a
whole, they seek profit margins from contracts of
sales to Law Enforcement, security and military.

The special guns are all special runs...S&W wants the
bragging rights to their Big Magnums 500 & 460 (always
wanted the 460) but they are doing themselves a
disservice in the long run by not making guns
chambered for calibers like the 10mm. Ant S&W has
discontinued their parts to service the 3rd gen semi
autos which were touted as "Lifetime Warranty".

However there remains the insidious pushing of the
1911 platforms in various calibers especially 45ACP
like that of a drug pusher. Despite the polymer
framed revolution that is also push away from real
metal guns to include the rifle stocks. Not many with
warm rich sexy wood stocks...

The past administration was the catalyst to gun & ammo
sales and the buying public is probably fully stocked
and even over stocked, even those who handload stocked
up and it may be quite sometime before there will be a
big push like we saw. Two things are happening
though, shelves are starting to have stock sit longer.
This can lead to prices coming down or reductions in
productions...

Also most Law Enforcement and even the Military are
switching back or staying with 9mm.

__________________
The
Shadow

LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Menber
BASS Life Menber
Back to Top View The_Shadow's Profile Search for other posts by The_Shadow
 
joed
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: February 18 2003
Location: Grafton, OH
Posts: 11666
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 29 2017 at 3:26pm | IP Logged Quote joed

Shadow, interesting thoughts. Didn't know S&W discontinued parts
for their 3rd gen autos, that says a lot.

I've noticed the 1911 platform is getting popular again but now in
9mm.    Can't understand the gun industry at all, as you said profits.

Also have noticed everything is tactical anymore, even 22 rf ammo.

__________________
The 6 gun was once as common as the cellphone is today, and just as annoying when it went off in the theater.
Back to Top View joed's Profile Search for other posts by joed
 
REM1875
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: November 13 2010
Location: Buffalo Springs, Clay County, TX
Posts: 277
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 30 2017 at 1:55am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

The only reason I leave an M-1 Carbine by the door is
because it is easier for smaller members of my family to
use and hopefully does more damage than a 22 LR- and it
has a lot of ammo.
I want to replace it with a more effective 40 S&W for
the ranges it will be used at.

__________________
USMC-US ARMY-US NAVY HMC -FMF
NRA -LIFE, TSRA -LIFE, DAV -LIFE, VFW-LIFE,

"If it killed em a 150 years ago, it still kill em today" (answer to a comment about black powder weapons)
Back to Top View REM1875's Profile Search for other posts by REM1875
 

Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc

Page of 3 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum

Powered by Web Wiz Forums version
Copyright ©2001-2008 Web Wiz Guide

This page was generated in 0.1240 seconds.