Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  

Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc
General Discussion
 Handloads.Com Forum : General Discussion
Subject Topic: Bullet Terminal Velocity Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
KinleyWater
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: August 12 2016
Posts: 278
Online Status: Offline
Posted: May 12 2017 at 3:59am | IP Logged Quote KinleyWater

In another thread in the Hunting section, I mentioned that my brother had a war production Mosin Nagant rifle he wanted to use for a number of hunts - up to and including possibly elk. He purchased a number of Sierra Pro Hunter 180gr Spitzers, .311, for hand loading, since he wanted a heavier bullet for hunting big game.

I postulated that 1800 fps would be the minimum velocity the bullet would function at, but I was unsure due to bullet construction. So, I contacted Sierra to inquire about the terminal velocity range for this and the .358 caliber 225gr Game King.

Sierra's response was both prompt and informative, but did not directly answer my question. Instead, they quoted the muzzle velocity the projectiles were designed to be launched at (2500 - 3000 fps for the 180 Pro Hunter), and estimated a maximum effective range based on an assumed initial velocity. Well, that was enough for me to check the velocity of the projectile at the range stated to determine a minimum velocity.

So, to make this a little more clear. What I wanted was the minimum velocity at which the bullets would still function as designed. I had estimated 1800 fps and from the data provided by Sierra, I derived it would actually be 1900 fps for both projectiles. This is very useful to me as it means when building a load, I can estimate the maximum effective range of that load by checking at what distance the projectile slows to 1900 fps.

So, does anyone else have experience with bullets functioning, or failing, at different impact velocities?

Edited by KinleyWater on May 12 2017 at 4:00am


__________________
List of guns/ calibers I own.
Pithy quote.
Back to Top View KinleyWater's Profile Search for other posts by KinleyWater
 
richhodg66
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: December 13 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3985
Online Status: Offline
Posted: May 12 2017 at 4:58am | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

That bullet is gonna kill whatever you shoot with it as far out as you can reasonable hit with it. Shot placement is king.

But if you want to relieve your curiosity, do some expansion testing. Lot's of info out there on media for doing it, wet newspaper and such. Easy to load down to whatever velocity you're looking for and check a few fired projectiles out.

__________________
"The secret to happiness is freedom, and the secret to freedom is courage."
Back to Top View richhodg66's Profile Search for other posts by richhodg66
 
Ham Gunner
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Ozark, Missouri
Posts: 5321
Online Status: Offline
Posted: May 12 2017 at 5:05pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

Well, I am not sure that I understand what you are attempting to do, but I think you are wanting to know at approximately what the slowest velocity that the bullets would perform their best. Well, that would certainly be a question that could receive many answers. My experience has been much better on the far end of the hunting range rather than for shots that were taken where the velocity was a bit too fast. Over expansion is not a good thing either as I found out on several occasions with various bullets, but I feel that one would be least likely to error on the far end or farther distant shots with most cup and core hunting bullets.

Like Rich stated above, I really doubt that you will find either bullet or caliber at the weights that you have mentioned, to be ineffective even if a bit under your chosen slowest impact velocity. While the .358 cal. bullet will certainly slow down a bit faster compared to the .30 cal., I think it's weight will still contain a good bit of knock down power and penetration even below your chosen terminal velocity. At least enough to easily kill an elk if the shot is placed well.

Just in case you do not have ballistic table handy, I pulled out my old Sierra manual published back in 1978 and here are the ballistics for Sierra bullets. The .308 dia. that you mentioned was listed, but apparently Sierra was not making a 225gr. .358 dia. bullet at that time so I will give you what they had for a .358 dia. 200gr. RN that they were making at that time.

For the Sierra .308 dia. 180gr. Spitzer Flat Base @2,500 fps muzzle velocity, it will have dropped to 1,970 fps at 300 yards. It will be 1,809 fps at 400 yards. For both the best hunting as well as best accuracy load for that 180gr. bullet in a 7.62x54R, Sierra recommends a charge of 48.1gr. of IMR 4320. They show a 24" barrel giving a muzzle velocity of 2,600 fps.

For the Sierra .358 dia. 200gr. Round Nose @2,500 fps muzzle velocity, it will have dropped to 1,922 fps at 150 yards. It will have slowed to 1,754 fps at 200 yards. My old Sierra manual does not have the .35 Whelen listed for loading data.

I ran across a suggested load for a .35 Whelen using a 250gr. Barnes XFB bullet with a charge of 53 gr. of H4895 for 2,547 fps. so I expect that you should be able to achieve a good bit more velocity with your 225gr. bullet than your minimum starting velocity of 2,500 fps. In fact, both rifles should be able to achieve at least 2,600 fps with your chosen bullets.

I hope this helps, but you may already have checked out ballistic tables and if so, then you can likely see even better statistics than I have provided as my old tables are a bit dated and have limited bullet weights included.

In any event, I would not be hesitant to take a good clean shot at an elk on out to 250 - 300 yards with either one. Bullet drop and trajectory are very important to keep handy. I tape or rubber cement a ballistics drop chart on the butt of my rifle stocks for quick reference so I can quickly determine the drop and wind drift in the field.


Edited by Ham Gunner on May 12 2017 at 5:27pm


__________________
73 de n0ubx Rick - NRA BENEFACTOR LIFE MEMBER/VFW LIFE MEMBER - A government big enough to GIVE you
everything you want, is strong enough to TAKE everything you have. - Thomas Jefferson

Back to Top View Ham Gunner's Profile Search for other posts by Ham Gunner
 
KinleyWater
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: August 12 2016
Posts: 278
Online Status: Offline
Posted: May 12 2017 at 5:35pm | IP Logged Quote KinleyWater

Ham,

Your first paragraph is right on for what I am looking for. I used the two Sierra bullets as an example because that is what I am working with at the moment. The folks at Sierra were very helpful and provided me some ballistics data for both. As it turns out, the Sierra 225s are good to between 300 and 350.

It makes sense to me that if I am still hunting in woods, and I know I'm never going to make a shot past 75, 100, 150 yards, etc. that I can down load and save on recoil, powder, and so forth. And I can still have the confidence that the bullet will perform as designed.

Of course, as Rich points out, it's where you stuff it above all else. I am curious, though, in a more general sense, what people's experiences are with various projectiles in calibers. Have you found that a particular bullet likes faster or slower velocities? That's also what I would like to know.

Edited by KinleyWater on May 12 2017 at 5:35pm


__________________
List of guns/ calibers I own.
Pithy quote.
Back to Top View KinleyWater's Profile Search for other posts by KinleyWater
 
Ham Gunner
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Ozark, Missouri
Posts: 5321
Online Status: Offline
Posted: May 12 2017 at 5:55pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

KinleyWater wrote:
Ham,

Have you found that a particular bullet likes faster or slower velocities? That's also what I would like to know.


While I have not done all that much load development with reduced loads, I have found that bullets do seem to have a certain speed zone up and down the range that is more accurate than other speeds. But I suspect that with most bullets, one can find a happy spot somewhere along the way by starting at the lowest suggested load level and slowly work up. Certainly no reason that one needs to try to achieve the highest velocity in order to have a very accurate load.

I used to do a lot of experimenting when I first started using a chronograph years ago. I had already discovered before that, that as one goes up in powder charge, that bullets got accurate and then became irratic as the charge was increased and then became accurate again as the charges were progressively increased again. I never really understood why until I could see the extreme velocity deviations of the irratic zones and the tighter velocity deviations at the accurate zones of the load work ups.

Was just a matter of finding the happy spots where the powder would burn more uniformly. But of course, bullets most likely do have their very best happy spots as far as velocity goes. Experimenting with various powders will eventually show where the bullets prefer to travel as far as velocity to achieve that extreme accuracy. Sierra does normally recommend the best powder to use for best accurate high velocity loads as well as their recommended best powder and charge for best extreme accuracy. Sometimes, as in the case of that 180gr. bullet for the Mosin-Nagant, both powders and loads where the same for their best recommended hunting and accuracy load.   

__________________
73 de n0ubx Rick - NRA BENEFACTOR LIFE MEMBER/VFW LIFE MEMBER - A government big enough to GIVE you
everything you want, is strong enough to TAKE everything you have. - Thomas Jefferson

Back to Top View Ham Gunner's Profile Search for other posts by Ham Gunner
 
KinleyWater
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: August 12 2016
Posts: 278
Online Status: Offline
Posted: May 12 2017 at 5:59pm | IP Logged Quote KinleyWater

Good information Ham, thanks.

__________________
List of guns/ calibers I own.
Pithy quote.
Back to Top View KinleyWater's Profile Search for other posts by KinleyWater
 

Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc

If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login
If you are not already registered you must first register

  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum

Powered by Web Wiz Forums version
Copyright ©2001-2008 Web Wiz Guide

This page was generated in 0.1250 seconds.