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Atavist
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Posted: August 04 2017 at 7:45pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

Been debating on what is my best griz load...

Have my 45-70 sabati sxs cooking 405gr HC just shy of 2000fps consistent with 60gr Varget and a tite crimp.

loaded up some 535gr GSHC with 44.7gr Varget and a tite crimp and was surprised to see almost 1600fps. Unfortunately my chamber is only 2.560 so had to keep them short and was compressed pretty well with just 44.7gr. Wish i could get some more behind it but is what it is....

As is... what are your thoughts on best bear load? with the same cross section is the 535gr going to transfer enough extra energy to make up for the decreased velocity? the good'ol debate of big and slow vs bigger and slower.



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Ranch 13
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Posted: August 04 2017 at 8:03pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

a 405 gr bullet doing around 1300 fps will shoot length ways thru a full grown
buffalo at 150 yds.
Have never understood why folks think they need to try and turn the 45-70
into a 458 wiinmag.

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Atavist
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Posted: August 04 2017 at 8:26pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

for me it's a function of having toddlers with me in the back country... if a big bear gets aggressive I don't want to have to wonder if it's going to stop it in its tracks... while i can also down load to a 190gr collar button for varmint....
one of the best parts of reloading and a sxs rifle with a versatile round is that I can carry two wildly different loads, load quick, save my brass, and shoot anything from rabbit to moose or griz with one gun.
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Ranch 13
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Posted: August 04 2017 at 8:55pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

The lower recoil will be better to assure a good shot placement, and that first
shot going where it's supposed to , will do more to stop an animal, than
missing the first shot due to flinch and a second shot that may or may not go
where it should.

Unless both of those barrels with their different loads shoot to the same point,
will you be able to remember when the pressure is on, which barrel has which
load in it?
That is the beauty of reloading, you can taylor a load that will take a rabbits
head off at 100 yds, and put meat in the freezer with surety.

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Atavist
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Posted: August 05 2017 at 7:33am | IP Logged Quote Atavist

HI Ranch,
fortunately i'm not recoil shy... i'm a pretty big guy at 6'2" 260 and not flabby... my max loads buck like heck but i don't mind the ride.

... and as it happens... from what i've found anything exiting either barrel at near 2000fps groups pretty well out to 75 yards... the barrels are regulated for Hornady 325 Lever revolution ammo at 50 yards... so i started with trying to keep everything a similar speed and have seen good results thus far. My gun is a single non selective trigger. so no worry about which barrel is which, right then left. and with extractors not ejectors it's quick to crack her open and swap cartridges.

this week was my first time shooting the 535gr bullets... i just like pushing boundaries (on both ends) and seeing what I can get a gun to do... the sxs is particularly fun... at 100 yards the left barrel shoots about 4 inches to the right (crossover from regulation point) so i always hunt with the right barrel (primary regulated barrel) which shoots where it's pointed.
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M700
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Posted: August 05 2017 at 8:16am | IP Logged Quote M700

Interesting rifle.

I think a bear is going to fall quickly, if hit well, with whichever load you select. Both are big boomers!

Guy
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Ranch 13
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Posted: August 05 2017 at 9:31am | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

That is an interesting choice of rifles for "bear" defense.

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Atavist
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Posted: August 05 2017 at 3:39pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

Ranch 13 wrote:
That is an interesting choice of rifles for "bear" defense.


Been shooting 45-70 since I was young, so the cartridge made sense for me, but never really cared for the feel or action of a lever action, grew up on mostly single shot rifles and bolts. Thought about going for a Ruger no1 but with kids with me god forbid the first shot isn't enough... so the sabatti sxs was a perfect fit... the gun is light and handy and magnificently balanced... she comes on target faster than any rifle i've ever owned... the fact that she fullfills my childhood sxs rifle fantasies is just a bonus.

Edited by Atavist on August 05 2017 at 3:41pm
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safari100
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Posted: August 05 2017 at 7:37pm | IP Logged Quote safari100

Take a look at 300 grain Barnes Bullets You can load them hot or soft. They will expand well at all velocities and penetrate well.

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Atavist
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Posted: August 05 2017 at 8:39pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

safari100 wrote:
Take a look at 300 grain
Barnes Bullets You can load them hot or soft.
They will expand well at all velocities and
penetrate well.


Have used barnes tsx in my wife's 270 and the
30-06. Great bullets for sure... to date I
mostly load hard cast lead. Have Western
Bullet Co right here in town and go to the
same range as the owner... picked up the 535
grain gas checked for about $0.30/ bullet...
don't disagree barnes are great but I like to
train with the same bullet I take to the
field and at $1.07 a bullet from midway it's
an easy choice to stay with local hard cast.
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M700
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Posted: August 06 2017 at 10:32am | IP Logged Quote M700

At modest range, as in for bear defense, any difference in trajectory between your two loads won't matter.

I think I'd tend to stick with the 405's, maybe not even loading them to 2,000 fps. That's pretty stout, and probably not necessary. But if it shoots well from your rifle, why not?

I hunted with a .45/70 Marlin for a number of years. Many enjoyable hours at the loading bench and at the rifle, range but I only managed to shoot one mule deer with that rifle. That was using a 405 gr Rem JSP, at about 1650 fps. Went right through both shoulders of the mule deer, at about 70 yards, disrupting the spine and dropping it right there. I was impressed.

Have done some bear hunting since about 2010, four black bears and one grizzly. Shot some with the .375 H&H, and two with the 30-06 rifle. Both rifles worked well.

BTW - enjoyed hearing about your Sabbati rifle and how pleased you are with it.

Semper Fi, from an ol' Jarhead.

Guy

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M700
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Posted: August 06 2017 at 10:36am | IP Logged Quote M700

Oh - and back in my .45/70 days, I too tried Varget and was very pleased with it. I was doing a lot of NRA Highpower shooting in those days, with a .308 Win Model 70 target rifle. Always kept an 8 pounder of Varget going and decided to try that powder in my .45/70 loads.

It worked out real well!

Guy
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Atavist
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Posted: August 06 2017 at 5:47pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

Semper fi M700.

Definitely not worried about trajector at
bear defense ranges... just wondering which
of the two bullets would transfer the most
energy to the target... the 405gr at 2000fps
has around 3500fp energy while the 535gr at
1600fps has around 2800fp of energy... sounds
like the 405 is winner hands down but I was
wondering about insights on whether the
larger slower bullet might transfer more
energy as it deform than the 405 moving
faster...

... I need to get into making ballistic
gelatin....

Edited by Atavist on August 06 2017 at 5:48pm
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Ranch 13
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Posted: August 06 2017 at 5:51pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

The 535 will penetrate further, and do it in a straight line. Altho depending on
the nose shape may not be as good as a good ol 500 gr government bullet.
The 405 at that velocity won't likely penetrate well at that short range.


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Posted: August 06 2017 at 6:14pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

Ranch 13 wrote:
The 535 will penetrate
further, and do it in a straight line.
Altho depending on
the nose shape may not be as good as a
good ol 500 gr government bullet.
The 405 at that velocity won't likely
penetrate well at that short range.


The 405 is a flat nose the 535 a round
nose... so your saying the slower bigger
bullet would carry on while the faster
bullet would come apart? Or at least
pancake very quickly? .. sort of the
opposite of what I was thinking but
terminal ballistics aren't my strong
suite... Which raises a new question...
for a charging bear is the full instant
energy transfer ideal, or the bone
breaking penetration?
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Ranch 13
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Posted: August 06 2017 at 6:24pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Breaking, bone disrupting tissue and letting lots of air into places that weren't
designed to have air let into.
That's why the 45-70 and the 405 gr loading, and the 500 gr. have been
around since 1873, the ballistics aren't glamorous, but history has shown those
loads to work without fail.
Shot a log with both your bullets, at 25 yd, see which one shows the most
damage.


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Atavist
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Posted: August 06 2017 at 6:55pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

Ranch 13 wrote:
Breaking, bone
disrupting tissue and letting lots of air
into places that weren't
designed to have air let into.
That's why the 45-70 and the 405 gr
loading, and the 500 gr. have been
around since 1873, the ballistics aren't
glamorous, but history has shown those
loads to work without fail.
Shot a log with both your bullets, at 25
yd, see which one shows the most
damage.


That is a bit less troublesome than
messing with gelatin... will do. Thanks
for the insights.
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Ranch 13
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Posted: August 06 2017 at 7:35pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

One more thing to ponder.
Which is the better stopper? a 454 casual handgun, or a 45-70 loaded with
300 gr bullets at "trapdoor" level?


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Atavist
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Posted: August 06 2017 at 8:09pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

Ranch 13 wrote:
One more thing to
ponder.
Which is the better stopper? a 454 casual
handgun, or a 45-70 loaded with
300 gr bullets at "trapdoor" level?


Valid question... before I had kids with
me I was totally content with my 44mag
with 300gr loads of 18.1gr of lilgun
heavily crimoed and pushing 1250fps..
little doubt it would be sufficient... but
with kids my overkill instincts kick in.
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M700
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Posted: August 07 2017 at 7:19am | IP Logged Quote M700

Not sure if you're aware of Garrett Cartridges.

Garrett has been making some real fine .45/70 ammo for a long time. Several excellent articles on the .45/70 and the .44 mag handgun for stopping big game on that web site. Big emphasis on the flat-nose hard cast lead bullets for best performance.


Garrett Cartidges


When you can, take time to read the safari stories by Vince Lupo on that same web site. He did some great stuff with his .45/70 rifle!

Regards, Guy
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