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REM1875
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Posted: August 11 2017 at 1:18am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Old Ranger wrote:
Suggestions? Yeah, sell it and buy a
Colt! Ha!


NO I meant good suggestions   

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Old Ranger
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Posted: August 11 2017 at 6:48am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Ha! That WAS a good suggestion!

Just pickin' on ya....

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RT58
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Posted: August 11 2017 at 2:20pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

Atavist wrote:
RT58 wrote:


I also have two Navy Arms Schofields, also
made by Uberti. Their pros are the same as
the AWA and Mitchell, with the added bonus
of being able to use speedloaders to show
young police officers just how great their
plastic, high capacity autos really
aren't.


Had almost forgotten entirely about the
schofields... if someone would turn one
out in 357 I'd be in and quick... with
modern steels and heat treats you'd think
it could be done.


Modern steels and heat treat got us as far as old black powder cartridges using smokeless powders. I doubt we'll ever see anything "high pressure" in a Schofield format.

Smokeless powders were what killed the S&W top break revolvers. Modern cylinders can handle modern pressures, but it was the frame design, and the way smokeless powders burn, that are the weak link.
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RT58
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Posted: August 11 2017 at 3:02pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

REM1875 wrote:
I have had a problem with our Schofield from Navy Arms
back in the 90s- cylinder drags on frame no matter if
45 S&W or 45 Colt is fired. I had it apart so may
times and freed up and then it does it again at some
future random time.

It has never had a single 'hot' round through it.

I pull it apart ....free it up....it behaves well for
awhile then ....again and again.....
Nothing I can see..
That Navy Arms company disappeared long ago and I
don't think the new one can help.....
I think there was a reason why S&W never chambered 45
Colt in those...
Any ideas.....


Well, the originals were too short to chamber a .45 Colt cartridge, and S&W claimed the rim on the Colt cartridge was too thin to work reliably with their extractor system...

Anyway, the Navy Arms Schofields were made by Uberti, you might try to contact them about your issue.
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KinleyWater
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Posted: August 11 2017 at 5:17pm | IP Logged Quote KinleyWater

Wade,

Great post. I have little experience with SA, only shooting a newer model Vaquero a few years back. I didn't have any issues with it, but, then again, I didn't know any better.

When I bought a .44 Mag, I wanted a double action so I would not need to cock before firing in a time sensitive situation. And with that, I have found that I almost always cock before firing anyway . I find it almost cathartic to pull back the hammer. That, and I seem to shoot more accurately that way...

Oh, and in a twist of unvarnished irony - I ended up getting a S&W M69 - which only has 5 shots anyway .

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Old Ranger
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Posted: August 12 2017 at 7:46am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger


This is my Uberti mod P in 357Mag, imported and marketed by Cimarron. A solid performer for around 5 C notes. Smooth action and accurate. Those gentlemen in Italy been building firearms since the invention of gunpowder. They know their business.

And my Pietta engraved 45Colt. Factory hand tuned action that is so smooth and sweet it defies description. And what a shooter!



Edited by Old Ranger on August 12 2017 at 8:05am


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Old Ranger
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Posted: August 12 2017 at 8:18am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger



And my notorious .44mag Bounty Hunter SAA. Likely the tightest shooting handgun I've han since a 1st Gen Detonics Scoremaster.45ACP.

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Atavist
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Posted: August 12 2017 at 8:53am | IP Logged Quote Atavist

Nice! How does the fit and finish of the
Bounty hunter stack up to the other two?
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Old Ranger
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Posted: August 12 2017 at 10:40am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Frame, cylinder, and ejection rod tube are well fitted and blued. The trigger guard and backstrap are an alloy with a rugged, yet smooth blue-black finish. One piece European walnut grips are oil finished and have a pleasing satin smoothness. There is a slight wood to metal gap on my weapon, but is only noticeable if looked for closely. It is not an operational issue of course.
Screws are well cut and deeply blued. All fastenings are of close tolerance.

As with all weapons, it is important to remember to tighten screws after a shooting session. Some folks don't, thinking its foolish, but all weapons vibrate and they will get loose. Single actions in particular. I've fit more than a few ejection rods, springs, tubes, and screw after a customer failed to tighten the screws and those parts flew off into the weeds!

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REM1875
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Posted: August 12 2017 at 2:27pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

"I said i didn't have much use for them, not that I
didn't use em"


Cimarron Colt 38-40 (I also have real colts and an
unknown Colt replica 44-40)


Edited by REM1875 on August 12 2017 at 5:52pm


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REM1875
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Posted: August 13 2017 at 5:08am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

RT58
Well, the originals were too short to chamber a .45
Colt cartridge, and S&W claimed the rim on the Colt
cartridge was too thin to work reliably with their
extractor system...


Exactly our thinking at the time but the only choices
we had were the Navy Arms, an original or the new
(more expensive) Schofield from S&W and we made the
wrong choice after talking with the Navy Arms rep at
the NRA show

45 S&W brass or loaded rounds were not exactly a
common item yet back then either.....

Them old times knew what they were doing -thats why
all the problems with the colt lightning replicas with
rossi and others with straight walled cartridges (45
and 357) instead of the originals (in my opinion)

I got a feeling that if Marlin, Winchester or colt
could have made the 45 Colt work in a rifle they sure
as hell would have........

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richhodg66
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Posted: August 13 2017 at 6:32am | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

Maybe I just don't know any better, but I like Ruger Black Hawks and have and still do own a few. My favorite one is a 7 1/2" barreled one in .45 Coly my wife bought me for my birthday about 23 years ago. I'm kind of wanting to deer hunt with a handgun this year, and that one will probably be the one.

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Old Ranger
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Posted: August 13 2017 at 8:38am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

One of the requirements for Colt, when contracted by the army for a revolver to shoot a centerfire cartridge was to have the power to kill an Indian pony from 100yds. But the army didn't want the pistol to be the size and weight of a Colt Dragoon. They specified a revolver of solid frame construction in the size and weight category of the Colt 1860 Army revolver. The cavalry troopers realized the sabre was outdated and pled with command for a sidearm that could be reloaded easily, and be on their hip and not in a holster on the saddle. They fought dismounted most of the time with the corporals holding 4 to 5 horses in the rear. Pistols needed to be on the troopers.

Thus when the ordinance board and Colt firearms sat down to make medicine, the .45Colt and the 7 1/2" 1873 Single Action Army was the end result. Other companies that competed for the contract failed to meet the needs of the board.

In keeping the size and weight down, things needed to be streamlined and made as compact as possible and not sacrifice strength. The cylinder was fluted to reduce weight and the diameter was cut down to the most compacted size without losing strength. And here's the kicker, the army wanted that indian and pony killing power. A .45 caliber was also called for. To accomplish all that the chambers were made as close as possible. In doing this, the rims were trimmed down to fit. Pure and simple. There were no other alternatives, and let's face it, it was black powder days. Smokeless powder wasn't on the scene yet. 40gr of FFg BP, a 250gr conical bullet and the ability to shoot an Indian and his horse. So those rims were indeed trimmed as much as posible. And Colt didn't consult with Winchester about the cartridge so I'm not surprised that in the day of balloon head cases and softer brass, Winchester or Marlin had extraction issues as did S&W. That cartridge was designed for a Colt SAA, and other considerations did not come into the plan. And remember this, Colt was the #1 contractor for pistols to the U.S. from around 1847 through 1945, with service contracts in place even later. Also the 60's saw thousands of Colt made M16 rifles for Uncle Sam. Colt had it's hand held by the government for over a century.


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richhodg66
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Posted: August 13 2017 at 8:43am | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

Interesting write up. Wish the Army were that good about new equipment acquisitions now.

If I deer hunt with that Black Hawk, it'll be with a 250 grain SWC (either my Saeco or Dad's Lyman 454190) and 8.5 grains of Unique. At the distances I plan to shoot, that oughta perforate Bambi no sweat.

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REM1875
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Posted: August 13 2017 at 8:58am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Since the 45 S&W fit both the S&W and the colt -28 gr
under a 230 gr hollow base bullet- the Army adopted the
the 45 S&W for both guns- The 230 gr bullet with 28 grs
of black powder gave performances surprisingly similar
to the 45 ACP of later years.

Many of the tales about the performance of those old 45
Army colts actually were using 45 S&W ammo!!!

Edited by REM1875 on August 14 2017 at 1:07pm


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Old Ranger
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Posted: August 13 2017 at 9:03am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Rich, that load will drop a horse! The army said so!

I remember a few of my hunting buddies looking at me like I was an idiot going into the woods with a '51 Navy. But that soft .375" round ball flattened out to the size of a nickel and a modest sized whitetail buck 6 point was on the ground a few feet from where he was shot. Sixguns do nicely in the field.

That 8.5gr Unique load is a solid performer. I'll be looking forward to the report on the hunt.

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REM1875
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Posted: August 13 2017 at 5:24pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Handy list to figure out the year your Italian replica
was made.
And yes they are excellent guns......

https://bluebookofgunvalues.com/Info/PDF/Powder/Piettaan
dItalianSerial.pdf

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Posted: August 13 2017 at 10:23pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

Rich, my favorite load for my 5 1/2" New Service using the Keith 454424 250gr. is 8.8 gr. Unique and it chronographs right at 925 fps. so your 8.5gr. or so of Unique in a two inch longer barrel should be approaching 1,000 fps. give or take a few. Definitely 950 fps. and that is a potent round.

Incidentally, I came up with about a dozen or more old balloon head cases that I found at a gun show years ago and I load them with 40gr. FFFG. Has a bit more felt recoil but delivers about the same velocity as the Unique load.

Edited by Ham Gunner on August 13 2017 at 10:24pm


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Posted: August 14 2017 at 3:28am | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

Yeah, I can't imagine me ever needing more power than a standard .45 Colt load would need, and the meplat on that Saeco I cast, or all these Lymans my Dad gave me, should be more than enough to do the job.

The 7 1/2 inch barrel is one my wife bought me when I first got to Alaska. I was a reasonably accomplished caster by then, and before I left Fort Bliss had gone out to the LGS that was my favorite hand out and bought that four cavity Saeco mold, and some lino type. I also had a badly abused four cavity mold of some type that cast a 250 grain RF type with a very small flat point. Anyway, first trip to a tire store got me two five gallon buckets or wheel weights and I went to work. Most of those wheel weights went down the barrel of that Blackhawk in the next year or two.

I haven't had that one out in a while, been shooting quite a bit of .45 Colt plinking loads in a different pistol. I need to get that favorite one out and start working with it, that early deer segment is right around the corner it seems.

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RT58
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Posted: August 14 2017 at 12:06pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

REM1875 wrote:
...Exactly our thinking at the time but the only choices
we had were the Navy Arms, an original or the new
(more expensive) Schofield from S&W and we made the
wrong choice after talking with the Navy Arms rep at
the NRA show

45 S&W brass or loaded rounds were not exactly a
common item yet back then either.....

Them old times knew what they were doing -thats why
all the problems with the colt lightning replicas with
rossi and others with straight walled cartridges (45
and 357) instead of the originals (in my opinion)

I got a feeling that if Marlin, Winchester or colt
could have made the 45 Colt work in a rifle they sure
as hell would have........


I'd never seen one of the new and improved S&Ws, and figured if it was anything like their other new and improved revolvers I didn't want to anyway. An original would have been nice, but have never seen one of those either. I did see an original New model 3 a cousin of mine had, which is what started all this.

I think the introduction of smokeless powder had a lot to do with many of the old revolvers being obsolete. That and the fact that workers and manufacturers really cared about the work they did and the products they sold.
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