Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  

Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc
Handguns
 Handloads.Com Forum : Handguns
Subject Topic: underpower loads and case space Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
Atavist
Member


Avatar

Joined: August 04 2017
Posts: 97
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 27 2017 at 12:59pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

something I've never messed with much before but am intrigued with at the moment is powering down loads and case space issues... looking at the versatility of the 32H&R to 32SW short makes me wonder what I can do with a 357 on the low end...

Working up some loads right now with the 105gr meister bullets I just got. Cutting the powder 1gr at a time... loaded them with 14gr of blue dot the other day and got 1800fps... so cutting back, 13, 12, 11, 10... at 10 the case is about half full and the bullet seating depth on these is pretty shallow... so some space in there... at what point should I be packing in felt to keep the powder in place? does anyone know if bluedot is case space/position sensitive?

i can of course always use 38spl cases (if i had any) to clear up some of this issue.... is there another 38 cal cartridge that i could use to get even shorter?

thanks for the info as always.
Back to Top View Atavist's Profile Search for other posts by Atavist
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 2952
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 27 2017 at 1:18pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

.38 Long Colt... That's as short as you can go in a 357 chambered weapon today. It's the cartridge the 38Spl replaced. The 38LC is Very Underpowered!

__________________
"I ain't doin' nuthin' I can't do from a horse."

Monte Walsh
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 2952
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 27 2017 at 1:25pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Seriously thinking. Going from one extreme to the other is not something that you should attempt with one powder. Blue Dot doesn't "reduce" well. It's forte is higher velocity with decent case bulking properties, with reasonable pressures.

Wanna go light poping stuff drop 3gr Bullseye behind your 105gr in the mag case. For God sake, no felt! BE pops easily by itself....

__________________
"I ain't doin' nuthin' I can't do from a horse."

Monte Walsh
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
Atavist
Member


Avatar

Joined: August 04 2017
Posts: 97
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 27 2017 at 1:32pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

did a search on the 38 long colt and this came up as well...
a video on cutting 38spl/357 cases down to 38 short colt lengths.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnAugari3_A

looks like it might be the way to go. definitely solves any concerns about poor/uneven powder ignition due to case space... I'm going to stop in the 357 cases at 9.5 grains of bluedot, which is a load listed for 170gr bullet... with a 105gr will still probably be pretty zippy. (I'll of course shoot these in the gp101 first to make sure nothing crazy happens before trying them in the cimarron)
Back to Top View Atavist's Profile Search for other posts by Atavist
 
Atavist
Member


Avatar

Joined: August 04 2017
Posts: 97
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 27 2017 at 1:39pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

Old Ranger wrote:
Seriously thinking. Going
from one extreme to the other is not
something that you should attempt with one
powder. Blue Dot doesn't "reduce" well. It's
forte is higher velocity with decent case
bulking properties, with reasonable
pressures.

Wanna go light poping stuff drop 3gr Bullseye
behind your 105gr in the mag case. For God
sake, no felt! BE pops easily by itself....


Yeah looking at the data the 9.5gr load
behind a 170gr bullet is still an estimaTed
1000fps... behind the 105 probably still
pretty hot...

Only 3gr of bullseye? I think I'll get into
dutting brass down before I go that low..
case would be alost empty... or maybe I'm
just being paranoid about the whole stuck
bullet double ignition thing...
Back to Top View Atavist's Profile Search for other posts by Atavist
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 2952
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 27 2017 at 1:39pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Watch out for detonation with slower powder reduced too much. Not a safe or pleasant experience.

If you want mouse loads in a 38, get some OOO buck and put 2gr Bullseye in the case with LLA coated buck thumbpressed in the case with a mild crimp. Almost like a BB gun. If you want anything slower/lighter, poke the target with your finger.

__________________
"I ain't doin' nuthin' I can't do from a horse."

Monte Walsh
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
Atavist
Member


Avatar

Joined: August 04 2017
Posts: 97
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 27 2017 at 2:03pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

Never would have thought about 000 buck
shot... I just happen to have 30 lbs sitting
in the corner that I keep meaning to load for
my 12ga...

So those 2 and 3gr loads are safe in a 357
case? Or should those be in the cut down 38
short?
Back to Top View Atavist's Profile Search for other posts by Atavist
 
STCM(SW)
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: February 17 2007
Location: Eastern Washington
Posts: 8898
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 27 2017 at 2:47pm | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

If you want light loads with a 357 Mag case, try using Trail Boss.
Replicates black power loads.
Have used it in .32 S&W, 38 S&W revolvers.

__________________
NRA Life Benefactor Member
USN MCPO Ret. 1960-1992
Si vis pacem, Para Bellum!
Back to Top View STCM(SW)'s Profile Search for other posts by STCM(SW)
 
Atavist
Member


Avatar

Joined: August 04 2017
Posts: 97
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 27 2017 at 3:59pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

Hmm... taking a closer look at these powders
has me really rethinking most of my powder
selections... when I got into loading I
didn't really know where to start... so I
went for powders with broad application and
lowest cup to to fps ratio... both of these
powders averase loads is around half the
grains I've been loading with bluedot and
lilgun... that's twice the bang for your
buck... literally, being as most of the
powders cost about the same per pound...
Back to Top View Atavist's Profile Search for other posts by Atavist
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 2952
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 27 2017 at 4:10pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Cut 357Mag cases? Nope. 38Spl cases are cheap enough.
But I used to shove 3 of those balls into a 357Mag case with a mild dose of unique and shoot aramidillos i to next week! Out to 30yds that was brutal!

If you don't have any LLA, [ Lee's Liquid Alox ] then use melted paste wax or poke the loaded round into melted wax of a candle [unlit or course!] just enough to cover the ball. 3gr Bullseye is good. Will pop quietly, and is remarkably accurate out to 20yds or better. About the same punch as a '51 Colt Navy loaded with 10gr of black powder, a bit of cornmeal filler, and the ball. The quintessential low velocity load for a Colt Navy.

Please, forget about cutting down cases and such. It's a definite waste of time and creates more trouble than it's worth with setting dies to load with. Remember, dies are milled for CONVENTIONAL CASES not those cut too short to reach the crimping portion of the seating die. They do have their limits. Keep this in mind....

__________________
"I ain't doin' nuthin' I can't do from a horse."

Monte Walsh
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
Atavist
Member


Avatar

Joined: August 04 2017
Posts: 97
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 27 2017 at 5:24pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

Sounds like an interesting load... I'll have
to give that a try.

Hadn't even thought about the die issues
cutting cases would cause... unless I could
use the 9mm bullet seater... but like you say
probably not worth the trouble... my dad is
in town and brought his 38spl... will pick up
a box of ammo for him to shoot and get to
keep the brass to play with.
Back to Top View Atavist's Profile Search for other posts by Atavist
 
joed
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: February 18 2003
Location: Grafton, OH
Posts: 11699
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 27 2017 at 5:26pm | IP Logged Quote joed

Bullseye is what my friend uses for very light loads in .38 Spl. I've
never done it but it works for him.   

__________________
The 6 gun was once as common as the cellphone is today, and just as annoying when it went off in the theater.
Back to Top View joed's Profile Search for other posts by joed
 
Atavist
Member


Avatar

Joined: August 04 2017
Posts: 97
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 27 2017 at 6:26pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

Definitely picking up a pound tomorrow... if
it's as versicolor as it sounds it may
replace both lilgun and bluedot for pistol.
Back to Top View Atavist's Profile Search for other posts by Atavist
 
RT58
Senior Member




Joined: August 04 2009
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 366
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 27 2017 at 6:55pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

Bullseye, Bluedot and Lil'Gun are different powders for different uses. Bullseye is great for light loads and target shooting and can be used for defensive loads in some calibers. But it won't replace Bluedot or Lil'Gun.

Cutting down .357 brass to .38 LC isn't hard to do and you can buy a set of .38 LC dies for loading. I didn't watch the video, but there may be a problem with the thicker web of the .357 cases bulging and causing chambering difficulties. The easiest thing to do is to just use .38 or .357 cases as they are. Bullseye was made to be used in large capacity cases and it produces a lot of gas with small charges of powder. Double charges are possible and you need to be very careful with light loads.
Back to Top View RT58's Profile Search for other posts by RT58
 
Atavist
Member


Avatar

Joined: August 04 2017
Posts: 97
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 27 2017 at 7:27pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

RT58 wrote:
Bullseye, Bluedot and
Lil'Gun are different powders for
different uses. Bullseye is great for
light loads and target shooting and can be
used for defensive loads in some calibers.
But it won't replace Bluedot or Lil'Gun.

Cutting down .357 brass to .38 LC isn't
hard to do and you can buy a set of .38 LC
dies for loading. I didn't watch the
video, but there may be a problem with the
thicker web of the .357 cases bulging and
causing chambering difficulties. The
easiest thing to do is to just use .38 or
.357 cases as they are. Bullseye was made
to be used in large capacity cases and it
produces a lot of gas with small charges
of powder. Double charges are possible and
you need to be very careful with light
loads.


Thanks for the tip Rt58.. I only have a
single stage loader and a Perfect Powder
measure and always visually inspect every
case at each stage so little risk of a
double load with my setup.

As to different powders for different
purposes.. I've been loading for a while
but have kept it pretty restricted till
recently when I got a chronograph, and
signed on here... still a lot to learn.
Looking closer at the load Data on here I
see what you are saying... the load data
for bullseye saves a lot of powder for
200gr bullets in 357 but it also drops
300fps off of my lilgun load which has a
lower CUP. I appreciate all you guys
keeping me straight.

Edited by Atavist on August 27 2017 at 7:33pm
Back to Top View Atavist's Profile Search for other posts by Atavist
 
joed
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: February 18 2003
Location: Grafton, OH
Posts: 11699
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 28 2017 at 11:25am | IP Logged Quote joed

You are still going to want those slower powders for the hotter loads.   
As others have said Bullseye and like powders are for a different
application altogether.    

I haven't used Blue Dot in years since I discovered 2400.   It's a good
powder but I always had a hard time finding it.

Bullseye is sometimes hard for me to find too.

__________________
The 6 gun was once as common as the cellphone is today, and just as annoying when it went off in the theater.
Back to Top View joed's Profile Search for other posts by joed
 
Atavist
Member


Avatar

Joined: August 04 2017
Posts: 97
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 28 2017 at 1:25pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

Got a pound of Bullseye and was about to make up a few of the 000 loads but come to find out my jug of 000 is actually full of 00 ... that's annoying... and unfortunately i got it so long ago i can't even remember where... so went down to Western Bullet Co. and he doesn't have any 000 balls but he did have some 75gr collar buttons. He gave me a handful to test run (nice guy) so I'm going to see how they stuff into a 357 case with 3 gr of bullseye and hopefully get to the range tonight or tomorrow.
Back to Top View Atavist's Profile Search for other posts by Atavist
 
Ham Gunner
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Ozark, Missouri
Posts: 5298
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 28 2017 at 2:08pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

For making up buckshot loads for 12 gauge, 00 buck sized buckshot should fit nicely inside most wads in a tri-layer where 000 buck is a bit too tight.

__________________
73 de n0ubx Rick - NRA BENEFACTOR LIFE MEMBER/VFW LIFE MEMBER - A government big enough to GIVE you
everything you want, is strong enough to TAKE everything you have. - Thomas Jefferson

Back to Top View Ham Gunner's Profile Search for other posts by Ham Gunner
 
Atavist
Member


Avatar

Joined: August 04 2017
Posts: 97
Online Status: Offline
Posted: August 28 2017 at 4:32pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

Just got back from the range... loaded three
different loads with the collar vuttons. All
3gr Bullseye but one set had 1 75gr collar
button, one set had 2, and one 3... was iffy
on the 3 bullet load but th I ugh I'd give ER
the old college try... all three wor ked out
great.
The one bullet load was like ol ranger
said... zero recoil, felt about a pellet gun
but shop true to aim out to 25yards... the
two bullet load was pretty soft firing and
had a little spread, the three felt about
like normal 357... I'll definitely be using
these again. The one shot load is ideal for
rabit or finishing medium game. The 3 shot
strikes me as ideal home defense round..
massive trauma without over penetration.

Here's a couple pics of the spread in the tw
and three bullet loads at about 7 yards.

... and don't worry. I was moving my point of
aim to spread them out... I'm not that bad a
shot at 7 yards.





Edited by Atavist on August 28 2017 at 4:47pm
Back to Top View Atavist's Profile Search for other posts by Atavist
 

Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc

If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login
If you are not already registered you must first register

  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum

Powered by Web Wiz Forums version
Copyright ©2001-2008 Web Wiz Guide

This page was generated in 0.2026 seconds.