Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  

Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc
Long Guns
 Handloads.Com Forum : Long Guns
Subject Topic: .223Rem rifling twist Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3031
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 05 2017 at 6:02pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

I know 30 cal stuff real well. 45-70, not a problem. But it's been 30 years since I had a .223Rem rifle. The old Armalite AR180 had a 1:12(?) and handled the 55gr FMJ and such. However, my new Anderson Manufacturing AM15 has a 1:8 barrel. With my old thinking cap in place, it tells me I should use heavier bullets with a faster twist. The current G.I. bullet is what, 62gr? Of course I'll test 55gr to be sure I'm not missing anything. Just been ages since I messed around with this caliber. So I'd like to hear from y'all that are more up to date with this caliber.

__________________
"I ain't doin' nuthin' I can't do from a horse."

Monte Walsh
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
joed
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: February 18 2003
Location: Grafton, OH
Posts: 11721
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 05 2017 at 6:19pm | IP Logged Quote joed

With a 1:8 twist you should be able to shoot 75 gr bullets. Hornady
used to have the best price on those. The military as far as I know is
shooting 62 gr, when I last checked.

I have the Colt with 1:7.   It does not do well with 50 or 55 gr bullets.



__________________
The 6 gun was once as common as the cellphone is today, and just as annoying when it went off in the theater.
Back to Top View joed's Profile Search for other posts by joed
 
M700
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: June 12 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 5929
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 05 2017 at 7:08pm | IP Logged Quote M700

Mine is a 1/9 twist. It shoots 55's and up to 69 gr bullets quite well. Normally I just stick with the 55's.

The 1/8 twist should shoot the 75 & 77 gr bullets well.

Military went to the 1/7 in the 1980's to stabilize the very long 62 gr bullet they're using. It was a huge improvement at the 500 yard line, compared to the previous 55 grainers.

Guy
Back to Top View M700's Profile Search for other posts by M700
 
Buffalogun
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 3312
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 06 2017 at 3:09am | IP Logged Quote Buffalogun

The 1 in 9" twist rate may be the best all-around twist rate for the .223. You surely want to try a box of the bullets in the link below.

https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/1395/224- dia-65-gr-SBT

Is your barrel stamped .223 or 5.56?

Mike

Edited by Buffalogun on October 06 2017 at 3:11am


__________________
"Please Mr. Custer.......I don't want to go" Larry Verne
Back to Top View Buffalogun's Profile Search for other posts by Buffalogun
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3031
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 06 2017 at 4:13am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Thanks guys for your insight. Much appreciated.
I agree with y'all that a 1:8 barrel shouldn't be too stable with a 55gr. And now I'll have to decide what weight range is best for my needs. Lots to choose from!

Mike, thanks for the link. I do like Sierra bullets myself, and Nosler is also a favorite. That 65gr looks great. With Uncle Sam going to 62gr in a 1:7 barrel, it makes sense that a 1:8 is real close. My granddaughter's Windham AR15 is a 1:9. She hasn't shot it yet, and her husband picked out some steel cased 55gr stuff. Guess we'll find out tomorrow when we go zero our respective rifles.

The barrel on mine is stamped " 5.56 Nato 1:8" and is a 16" carbine length of moderate thickness.

__________________
"I ain't doin' nuthin' I can't do from a horse."

Monte Walsh
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
Rex
Senior Member




Joined: June 01 2004
Location: ;Paxton, Ne.
Posts: 3242
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 06 2017 at 7:12am | IP Logged Quote Rex

I have an old H&R single shot to carry on the tractor. It has a 1-12 barrel and does well with Hornady 52 grain match hollow points.
Back to Top View Rex's Profile Search for other posts by Rex
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3031
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 06 2017 at 6:38pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

I recall shooting those from my old Armalite AR180 back in the 80's. But it was 1:12 and 55gr FMJ flew real good from it too. I'm still a bit apprehensive to say that 55gr will be stable at a distance from my current weapon. At 75yds 55gr FMJ it did well, but I'll be out at the grandkids place tomorrow and will install my old 1.25x-4x small tactical scope and will get real serious and see what goes with the 55's.

I'll check at my new favorite reloading shop next week for 75gr ammo, or weight near that. Then I'll do more testing on bullet weight. Just a matter of time.


__________________
"I ain't doin' nuthin' I can't do from a horse."

Monte Walsh
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
M700
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: June 12 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 5929
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 06 2017 at 7:53pm | IP Logged Quote M700

Kind of funny - I took a group of guys who'd bought their "tacticool" AR-15's and had only shot them at modest ranges... Took 'em to the range. Verified zero, made a few adjustments at 100 yards.

Then pointed 'em at the 300 yard gong...

They didn't believe me when I said "just hold on the head of the silhouette, you'll hit just fine."

But that's what happened. With cheap .223/55 grain ammo...

Shot after shot rang that gong. The AR-15 in 5.56 or .223 is so darned easy to shoot well.

Guy
Back to Top View M700's Profile Search for other posts by M700
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3031
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 07 2017 at 6:37am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Yup. In the late 80's I'd go to the grasslands north of Decatur Tx, and do my long range shooting open sight style. The M1 was always a joy to shoot, as was the old Sharps. But what surprised everyone that ever went with me was the Armalite AR180. I'd make hits on rocks the size of trash can lids at 600m and 700m with absolute certainty. Even at 800m, a hit was almost a certainly. And that was with the stock peep sights. I miss that rifle.

But, y'all know me, Mr. Analyze Anything. And I've been busy too. Concentrated study on govt records available, rifle manufacturers, ammunition manufacturers, professional shooters, and other reliable sources. I did not watch the YouTube idiots blow up water jugs and shoot as fast as possible. If I wish to witness such stupidity, I only need to walk across the road and my neighbor and his Ruger Ranch Rifle will provide the entertainment.

My findings were quite interesting. The old 1:12 was of course said to be most stable with the old 55gr. No surprises there. The 1:7 in the current G.I. rifles are the result of the 62gr bullet used by Uncle Sam. With 25% of it's weight being steel, it is naturally much longer then if produced with a conventional lead core. The 1:9 is of interest in that it's prime use in a rifle length barrel (20" to 24") provides the stability for longer bullets, and yet shorter rounds do not suffer a great loss either. In a carbine length weapon (16") it is known to allow the 55gr and up enough stability to be effective as well as the 62gr bullet. The real surprise was the 1:8. Conventional wisdom is that the 1:8 would be better suited for the 62gr bullet and even better with 70gr up through 77gr. And the studies from many aspects of the industry concurred that is the case, with rifle length barrels. However, in the carbine length barrels, the 1:8 revealed itself to be the premium choice for the 16" tube. Stabilized flight with a multitude of bullet weight is possible due to the fact of spin, combined with length of barrel. Studies and trials proved the 1:8 to be the most versatile twist in short barreled weapons. The conclusion of the industry was that it is better to have a faster twist than a slower one. The old studies and often estimated theories of "over stabilizing" by too fast a rotation of a bullet has been challenged and proven to be an exaggeration. The conclusive evidence indicates that a 1:8 barrel shouldn't be an issue with the average bullets available for the .223Rem/5.56mm weapons. A couple manufacturers went as far to say that it's the ideal candidate for a "one size fits all" rifling. Perhaps it is, but from the studies and trials, that would be a valid point with short barreled weapons, really.

Well, there you have it. What I came away with here is this. It's better to spin faster than slower. The projectiles are not going to disintegrate if spun too fast. Though they may spin off the flight path a little at a distance. Too slow and they're going to wobble and miss worse.

So, I'll take the 1:8 in my 16" barrel on my weapon. From the evidence presented I believe I made a good selection.

__________________
"I ain't doin' nuthin' I can't do from a horse."

Monte Walsh
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
Ham Gunner
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Ozark, Missouri
Posts: 5307
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 07 2017 at 6:07pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

I have a 1 in 7" twist Mini-14 that likes 69-77gr. bullets real well. Or at least as well as it will shoot at about 2" @ 100 yds. using a 1 3/4 x 5 power Redfield. Not the best accuracy by any means, but it never has failed to chamber or fire. Operation wise it is a no-fail rifle.

Anyway, early on when I first got it I had a few 40gr. Hornady Ballistic Tips that I had been playing around with in my Ruger 77-22, .22 K-Hornet. I knew that the Mini-14 fast twist was going to really over rev that little short bullet, but heck I gave it a try anyway using Win. 748. It was sort of iffy for the most part until I got it up to around 3,400 fps where it's groups were actually not all that bad at 100 yds. I have no idea what it was doing beyond that distance though.

My Son was needing a light recoiling rifle to deer hunt with that year and I did not have time to gather up and work up any longer/heavier weight bullets so that is what he used. He killed a huge doe (his first lone-kill deer) at age 13 with that rifle and the 40gr. Ballistic Tip. I suggested that he only shoot for ribs/lungs or neck if the deer was close enough. His shot was not over 30 yards and he was aiming for the base of the neck, but the big doe took a step forward and he hit her square through both shoulders. It went completely through the deer and destroyed the shoulders and she was done for right quick.

I was absolutely amazed that this high speed little bullet penetrated such a large deer and shoulders to boot. But the next year he got to use a Sierra 63 gr. SMP or semi-pointed bullet. It is actually a varmint bullet, but was the heaviest bullet that I could obtain at the time. This was before everyone started jumping on the fast twist .223 bandwagon and before all the bullet makers had started offering longer and heavier bullets. The only other heavy weight bullet that I could find at that time was the Sierra 69gr. HPBT Match King, but the Match Kings are not designed for hunting.

That Mini-14 1 in 7" twist did not really like any of the 55gr. bullets that I tested all that well so we just used the 63 gr. Sierra varmint bullet for a year or so until my Son was old enough for a heavier recoiling rifle. I eventually settled upon only loading the longer 69gr. or heavier (77gr. HPBT Match King) Sierra bullets just for plinking and we actually have not used that rifle for hunting for likely 20 years now. I expect that the newer 65gr. SBT Game King Sierra bullet that Mike suggests would be a winner for hunting in the faster twist barrels. I am very fond of Sierra bullets, but of course there are lots of other choices out there now as well.

MV X 720/Twist Rate = RPM so that tiny 40gr. Ballistic Tip was likely spinning at almost an amazing 350,000 rpm. and did not appear to want to disintegrate. I imagine that bullet would be happier at closer to 200,000 rpm. but I do not know exactly what Hornady recommends. It does show ,I think, that over revving is probably better than under revving for stability. At least at the short ranges that I tested.

Edited by Ham Gunner on October 07 2017 at 6:34pm


__________________
73 de n0ubx Rick - NRA BENEFACTOR LIFE MEMBER/VFW LIFE MEMBER - A government big enough to GIVE you
everything you want, is strong enough to TAKE everything you have. - Thomas Jefferson

Back to Top View Ham Gunner's Profile Search for other posts by Ham Gunner
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3031
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 08 2017 at 5:19am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Yes sir, I too have a strong attraction to Sierra bullets. Locally, hard to find. Mostly here, it's Hornady on the shelves. So I work with what is available. Need dies first. Last set of RCBS small base .223Rem dies were stolen by that punk stepson from the second wife.

Currently, all I have is Federal 55gr FMJ factory loads. My iron sights arrived yesterday, when I was out with my grandkids. As soon as it's light, and later in the day (don't want to wake up the neighborhood) I'm going to zero the sights and see what I can do off a sandbag at a hundred. I'm still wondering how well the 55's do at a distance. Yesterday, with the Tasco RedDot, I shot a disappointing 3" group from a sitting position. Granddaughter didn't fare much better with Monarch 55gr steel cased factory from the prone and a mechanical device my grandson had. She was using a Bushnell Trophy dot sight and it's far better than the little Tasco. In bright sunlight, the Tasco was on its greatest brightest setting, and still faint. The Bushnell on my granddaughter's weapon is quite good. But neither of us did that well. I'll know more today when I get to use sights I'm good with. They look like you're sighting with an M14. Ranger like! Ranger like a lot!

__________________
"I ain't doin' nuthin' I can't do from a horse."

Monte Walsh
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
joed
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: February 18 2003
Location: Grafton, OH
Posts: 11721
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 08 2017 at 9:03am | IP Logged Quote joed

I have never been a fan of Hornady but they sell the 75 gr .224
bullets so cheap you have to like them.    Even their loaded ammo is
cheaper then Federal, Winchester or Remington.   At least it was last
year.

Heck, a 3" group from a sitting position is nothing to be ashamed of,
that is fairly decent for what these guns were designed for.

__________________
The 6 gun was once as common as the cellphone is today, and just as annoying when it went off in the theater.
Back to Top View joed's Profile Search for other posts by joed
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3031
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 08 2017 at 4:17pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Shoot! Those flip up iron sights looked great. Sighting was old school perfect. One problem. The rear sight wobbled around like an old drunk! Couldn't keep it on paper half the time. Have to find a way to secure it or abandon the rear sight and find another more secure model. Phooie!

Tomorrow I will attempt to zero the 1.25x-4x scope on it. Sitting 2.5" above bore center is gonna be fun. NOT!
Either way, I will find a way to make it a tight shooter!
I've got hogs, coyotes, armidillos, skunks, and snakes to terminate and I don't play around when on a mission.

Guy, you were right. And I received those subconscious messages from an old Marine and fellow lawman to an older Ranger lawman. Your message seeped into my super thick skull... It was "Wade.... Hey Staff Sergeant! Listen up! Ok. Quit piddlin' around with old thumbuster sixguns! For crying out loud, you got a 1911A1! You're good! Now get a M16 style shooter. A nice quality AR15 platform will do nicely. Do it! That's an order Ranger! Carry on." And thus the mind block was removed.

__________________
"I ain't doin' nuthin' I can't do from a horse."

Monte Walsh
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3031
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 09 2017 at 1:58pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Got the little scope mounted. Shot a couple at 12.5yds until about 1.7" low. At 50yds, dead center. Should be then, a 255yd zero for a 297yd point blank range on hogs and such. What should have been a 1.65" high POI at 100yds, was spread out over a 7" inconsistent pattern!
The load: Federal 55gr FMJ factory loads. And it's neither me nor the scope. I've used the scope on my '06 and cloverleafed with it. Ya know, that might explain my shooting all over the place with the iron sights. 55gr instability ya reckon?

Conclusion: Go heavier and longer in the 1:8 barrel. I'm looking at 62gr on up to around 69gr or so. When my meager social security check goes in the bank in a couple days I'll invest in heavier ammo. Then I'll try it again.

__________________
"I ain't doin' nuthin' I can't do from a horse."

Monte Walsh
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
hoghunter
Senior Member




Joined: March 01 2010
Posts: 425
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 09 2017 at 5:31pm | IP Logged Quote hoghunter

You may want to try the Hornaday 53 grain V Max. This
bullet has an unusually high BC of .290 for this weight
bullet.

I have no personal experience with a 8" twist 223 as of yet
(mine are all 12"). However I been doing some reserach on
bullet options with the twist since I'm considering a Tikka
T3X which has an 8" twist. Reports are that this bullet
works very well in an 8" twist.
Back to Top View hoghunter's Profile Search for other posts by hoghunter
 
richhodg66
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: December 13 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3940
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 09 2017 at 6:09pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

I have two .223 bolt guns, an 80's vintage plain jane Savage 110 that is quite accurate with 50-55 grain bullets. I'm sure it has a slow twist.

I got a Mossberg MVP Predator a few years ago. Being new, I'm sure the twist is much faster than the Savage, but I haven't tried anything heavier than 55 grains in it yet. So far, it isn't as accurate as that Savage, but still plenty good for any field use. Guess I'll have to check the twist rate in it and maybe try some of the heavy bullets.

__________________
"The secret to happiness is freedom, and the secret to freedom is courage."
Back to Top View richhodg66's Profile Search for other posts by richhodg66
 
joed
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: February 18 2003
Location: Grafton, OH
Posts: 11721
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 09 2017 at 6:18pm | IP Logged Quote joed

I owned a Savage 10FP for a few years. It was a .223 with 1:9 twist,
heavy barrel and Timney trigger. Never could get it to shoot 50/55
gr bullets better then 1", the 69 gr MKs were a surprise, those would
leave just one ragged hole.   

People say the fast twist gives up nothing with the lighter bullets but
I haven't seen it with any guns I've owned.

__________________
The 6 gun was once as common as the cellphone is today, and just as annoying when it went off in the theater.
Back to Top View joed's Profile Search for other posts by joed
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3031
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 10 2017 at 6:34am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

The evidence thus far is not in favor of the 55gr bullet. Short tube or not, it's shown that it is not stable at a distance. I have a set of 223Rem dies on order. Should be here Fri. In the meantime, I'll go see my new buddy at his conex housed reloading store and procure a box of 62gr.224" soft nose. H335 sounds like a winner... Oh! small rifle primers! Phooie! Almost forgot about that...

Yup, I'm not sold on short bullets with a 1:8 bore.

Edit: Today, 10th, was out trying to get some form of a group with those Fed 55gr stuff. Attempted to refine the zero on the scope as well. 50yds, and I was all over the place. And from sandbags! Pulled the scope and put on the iron sights. Same thing. Scattered across the 9" plate!

In frustration, last resort, the Tasco Red Dot. Scattered everywhere, but closer than anything else. But it still sucked! I'm to the point now that if heavier bullets don't resolve this issue, then I'll unload the weapon on someone else and return to my old ways from the jungle. The jury is still out on that...

Edited by Old Ranger on October 10 2017 at 11:56am


__________________
"I ain't doin' nuthin' I can't do from a horse."

Monte Walsh
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3031
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 11 2017 at 4:52pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Went to my favourite shop today. Found only 55gr and lighter in Sierra, but as predicted, Lots of Hornaday. Got 60gr VMax. Never even seen a poly pointed bullet before. Kinda funny looking. But I hope it shoots better in my carbine. Dies will be in Fri. and then I'll get busy with test loads.

Also got some loaded 62gr ammo to test tomorrow.
I'll keep at it until it either cloverleafs at a hundred or it becomes a new gate post in the fenceline.

__________________
"I ain't doin' nuthin' I can't do from a horse."

Monte Walsh
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
Rex
Senior Member




Joined: June 01 2004
Location: ;Paxton, Ne.
Posts: 3242
Online Status: Offline
Posted: October 11 2017 at 5:18pm | IP Logged Quote Rex

Wade, do a google search on "best bullet for 1-8" 223".
A lot of folks end up liking the 77 grain Sierra bullet among others.
Back to Top View Rex's Profile Search for other posts by Rex
 

Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc

Page of 2 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum

Powered by Web Wiz Forums version
Copyright ©2001-2008 Web Wiz Guide

This page was generated in 0.1875 seconds.