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Ham Gunner
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Posted: 28 November 2017 at 8:06pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

rednekpaul wrote:
Let`s not let this turn into a .270 vs .280 thread. Remember the one a few years back that turned ridiculous.


They only turn ridiculous when someone gets mad because someone else does not agree with them. If one does not want to hear a bit of firearm development history or others opinions in discussions, then what are we even here for?

If I did not reload, then I certainly would not own my 6.5x257 Rob. or my .22 K-Hornet or a number of the less popular conventional chamberings including the .280 due to the availability of the ammo if nothing else. I learned that lesson back in the early 70's when I bought one of Remingtons (new at the time) 5mm Remington magnum rimfires, which was an extremely accurate and hot little round, only to find in a very short time that there was no longer going to be any ammo available.

A rifle without ammo is not of much use to anyone no matter how accurate or desirable it's ballistics are.

No, there is no debate. The .270 does it's job just fine and there are millions that like how it does it's job. And like I said, the ammo can be found anywhere.

Edited by Ham Gunner on 28 November 2017 at 8:19pm


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Dragon
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Posted: 29 November 2017 at 6:24am | IP Logged Quote Dragon

   A bit off key, but there so many "might have been" in different calibers.
   It seems most shooters like the 6mm category.
   I always wanted to try a round that was short lived, called the .22 Jaguar.
It was a .223 bullet in a necked down .45acp case, it claimed 2200fps out of a 5" 1911.

Edited by Dragon on 29 November 2017 at 6:25am


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Ham Gunner
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Posted: 29 November 2017 at 7:51am | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

I do not know if the .22 TCM will be short lived or not, but at the present time it has a growing group of followers. Using a necked down .223 case it can produce over 2,000 fps with a 40gr. bullet out of a handgun. It has the powder capacity of slightly more than a 9mm case.

The 6mm Remington was one caliber that had a following for a bit with the varmint crowd. Remington again attempted to resurrect that round when heavier bullets started hitting the market by renaming it the .244 Remington and using a faster twist barrel. Like the .280, that did not work so well either.

Edit: Guy caught my mistake in time for me to go back and edit this. I got those backwards. The .244 Remington came first with the slow twist and then the 6mm Remington with the faster twist.

It is hard to introduce a new chambering into the works even if it is slightly improved in some way, if the shooters have already approved and settled upon one as their standard. The .270 Win. will likely never have to worry about it's popularity as there is really no chance that it's performance will be surpassed to a great enough degree that it will fall from grace. The .270 Win. will likely live forever.

Heck, it is almost 100 years old already.

Edited by Ham Gunner on 30 November 2017 at 10:08pm


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Paul B.
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Posted: 29 November 2017 at 1:36pm | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

"One of the reasons I picked one up in a trade deal for something else
is because at the height of the Obama ammo scare, the only kind of
centerfire rifle ammo that did not sell completely out was .270. I do
have dies and found some bullets an old friend of my Dad's had cast
up, so I have loaded and shot for it, but I think that .270 of mine is
gonna be mainly a factory ammo rifle and not get shot much."

Seems to me to be a bit of a waste of a perfectly good .270. However,
as Elmer Keith once said, "I prefer to let every man scratch his own
fleas whatever way he wants."

The factory load that has worked best in the four .270 rifles I have has
been the Winchester 150 gr. Power point. Groups run from .50 to .75"
in three rifle (bolt action) and one inch in the Ruger #1A.

If you should decide to reload for the cartridge, I've found that the 150
gr. Sierra Game King is very accurate in my rifles and if I go foe elk with
the .270, I can, at least in my rifles use the 150 gr. Nosler Partition in
place of the Game King.

As far as whether a .270, 280 or 30-06 is better, I own rifles in all three
cartridges and I've killed a few deer with the .270 and lots of deer with
the 30-06. My .280 is as of yet unblooded but will come with my on my
late December elk hunt. It's three days and I usually fill out the first day.
(private land hunt) If I don't take anything with it on day one I'll decide
whether to try one more day with it or just go with my .35 Whelen. The
280, FWIW is pushing the 160 gr. Speer Grand Slams at 2930 FPS so I
do believe it'll be up to the task.
Paul B.
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Dragon
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 6:13am | IP Logged Quote Dragon

That .22TCM, might be the other round I heard about ?
The .22 Jaguar was something, I think out of California, it required replacing the slide as it had a two or three spring setup for absorbing the shock and prevent damage to the frame.
Something like that might be fun to play with. Although in truth I would prefer something using the heavier bullets, maybe the 69 grain.

I think the 150 grain is pretty much my favorite round. In what ever caliber.

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richhodg66
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 5:32pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

The .22 TCM seems like an answer looking for a question. Why anybody would want ballistics like that from a 1911 has me scratching my head.

However, that could be a really slick number in a small, slim rifle, like a .22 Hornet. To date, the Armscor rifle is the only one chambered in it and it's as big and heavy as most .223s and many .22-250s, so why?

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Dragon
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 7:16pm | IP Logged Quote Dragon

Most wildcat cartridges fall into that category, usually someone's "I wonder if..."
I don't imagine accuracy is all that great, but who knows, they were all someone's idea at one time or another
The .50 BMG is just a 30-06 on steroids, Browning just took everything up a level of two

Edited by Dragon on 30 November 2017 at 7:16pm


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M700
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 8:06pm | IP Logged Quote M700

Ham Gunner wrote:


The 6mm Remington was one caliber that had a following for a bit with the varmint crowd. Remington again attempted to resurrect that round when heavier bullets started hitting the market by renaming it the .244 Remington and using a faster twist barrel. Like the .280, that did not work so well either.



Actually, that's just backwards. The .244 was the earlier version, with the slow twist rifling. Then later, Remington gave the rifles a faster twist, added 100 gr deer bullets to the lineup, and re-named it the 6mm Remington.

I've been using mine since 1974, when it was a brand new rifle. My son shoots it more than I do now. He's taken mule deer & whitetail with it. We've both shot quite a few varmints with it, and some coyotes as I recall.

It's still a good cartridge, but completely overshadowed by the .243 Winchester which has terrific commercial success.

Regards, Guy
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Ham Gunner
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 9:54pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

You are certainly correct Guy. I got that one turned around.

I made an edit and attached it to my above post. I guess I was standing on my head when I studied about that caliber. Thanks.

Edited by Ham Gunner on 01 December 2017 at 2:10pm


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M700
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 11:12pm | IP Logged Quote M700

Ham Gunner wrote:
You are certainly correct Guy. I got that one turned around.


Easy enough to do - I only know 'cause I've owned one for 40+ years.

So many cartridges have interesting stories, good and bad.

Guy
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richhodg66
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Posted: 01 December 2017 at 6:02am | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

I've actually heard that the old slow twist 722s in .244 work fine with 100 grain bullets, I think it was Jim Carmichael that wrote that. Either way, I think most guys could have done their deer hunting just fine with 90 grainers and been done with it.

I'm kind of a fan of the 6mm. I only have one now, a 788, but it is an excellent shooter. I'd love to have one of those old 722s in the original .244 chambering, but it'll probably never happen. Strange the things that will make or break a cartridge's success. Not to get into an argument, but the .280 Remington should have been more successful than the .270 if for no other reason than existing bullet selection is much broader. I doubt there's a hunter alive who could tell the difference in performance between the two though.

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Ham Gunner
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Posted: 01 December 2017 at 8:43am | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

richhodg66 wrote:
the .280 Remington should have been more successful than the .270 if for no other reason than existing bullet selection is much broader. I doubt there's a hunter alive who could tell the difference in performance between the two though.


That is my thought and there really is not all that much difference between the two. The .27 cal. was an odd ball diameter for all those years with limited bullet selection. But apparently the bullets that were chosen to be manufactured worked wonders as history has shown.

I have read articles where the writers were saying that the American shooters were very reluctant to buy guns chambered in cartridges where the bullets were measured in millimeters, but then they could have just called it a .280 back then instead of a .270 and it might have been a success.

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richhodg66
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Posted: 01 December 2017 at 6:48pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

Makes a guy wonder how the 7mm Remington mag got so popular. Truthfully, it won't do much a .30-06 or .270 won't do.

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Dragon
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Posted: 01 December 2017 at 8:55pm | IP Logged Quote Dragon

If you look at old Sierra catalogs there used be a bunch of bullets for the M1 carbine, now there's just one, I think ?
I guess it's a case of what the market will bear, for any caliber. The carbine is sort of a .357 mag round if you go by velocity and ballistics.

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Posted: 02 December 2017 at 2:26pm | IP Logged Quote Buffalogun

Well...cartridges sell guns!

There is evidence that there was at least one rifle/cartridge using a .277 bullet before Winchester got their hands on it. Anyway, in 1925 Winchester hit a grand slam with their .270. With the powders available at the time, the .25 Niedner couldn't match the .270 and the '06 didn't shoot as flatly.

It stayed that way until after WWII when Remington thought the returning servicemen would want a fast shooting rifle chambered in something that could compete with the .270. The boys had been shooting the M1 Garand!
They chambered the .280 in their auto-loader, but the pressure had to be reduced. They missed the mark on both counts as bolt rifles sold and the semi-autos and .280 didn't. Changing the name of the cartridge created a fiasco of sorts.

The 244 Remington had too slow of twist rate at 1 in 12" to stabilize "spitzer" bullets of 100 gr. or longer. It would shoot round-nosed bullets accurately. Remington missed the mark again and started rifling the 6mm in a faster twist! But the .243 Winchester became very popular. The 6mm is a good cartridge but it came late to the party.

When Remington adopted the 257 Roberts they had a good thing, but they chambered it in rifles with magazines that were too short to seat heavy bullets out to take advantage of the powder capacity. Remington missed again! Hand loading really shows what the Bob is capable of.

Remington's 6.8 SPC hasn't been without problems, either. There is now a "spec II" chamber and more than one twist rate.

Nosler indicates their Accubond Long Range huntng bullets will give reliable expansion down to 1,300 fps. The 7mm Rem Mag will kick the 150gr. Accubond Long Range at 3,200 fps. and maintain 1,800 fps. past the 1,000 yd. mark. That is a flat shooting hunting load. And, flatness is the 7mm Rem Mag's comfort zone.



Mike

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Dragon
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Posted: 03 December 2017 at 5:31am | IP Logged Quote Dragon

A friend loved the .257 but went through a couple of barrels with his Hot loads over the years.

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Paul B.
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Posted: 03 December 2017 at 2:29pm | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

"Nosler indicates their Accubond Long Range huntng bullets will give
reliable expansion down to 1,300 fps."

I've been able to push the 7MM 150 gr. ABLR to a bit over 2700 FPS
using Rl17 but accuracy so far has been pretty grin in three rifles
chambered to that cartridge. I've also tried it in a .280 Remington with
sour results. From what I've seen on threads in other sites, the ABLR can
be a bit fussy regarding accuracy. Sure is one purty bullet though. Looks
kind of like the old German V-2 rocket without fins.
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rednekpaul
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Posted: 04 December 2017 at 6:11pm | IP Logged Quote rednekpaul

I like these kind of threads, gets a lot of discussion going. Interesting to look back and wonder why some cartridges thrived and some didn`t.
Cartridges like the .270,.280 30-06 I think are boring to the new generation of shooters. With all the new cartridges with super, ultra, short mag in there names that sound cool. None of these new cartridges do anything that the Weatherby cartridges did 60 some years ago. Anyway I think the best way to sell new rifles is come out with a new cartridge. What do you think the rifle/cartridge companies will try next!


Edited by rednekpaul on 04 December 2017 at 6:14pm
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Posted: 05 December 2017 at 9:23pm | IP Logged Quote Atavist

My wife absolutely adores her 270win BLR.
And I'll admit it is a slick and very
manageable rifle. For my part I'm with a lot
of the guys and don't think the 30-06 can be
beat.. I've got loads worked up now for 90gr
at 1200fps (rabit and coyote tamers) and
165gr at 2550fps.. next on the agenda is to
pump the 90gr up to exceed 3000fps and see
what i can do with a 220gr blackout bullet...
few other guns have such massive
versatility...
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