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rednekpaul
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Posted: 29 November 2017 at 7:21pm | IP Logged Quote rednekpaul

I have a Taurus 85 Ultralite .38 Special that's +P rated. I got some 158 grain cast hollow points and a lot of Unique. I`m getting some confusing data with my 3 reloading manuals on the +P loads. I want full power loads as this is my carry gun. Please no speeches on full power loads will shoot my gun loose. I don`t care, it`s replaceable. Your input will be much appreciated.
TIA
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Rex
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Posted: 29 November 2017 at 8:29pm | IP Logged Quote Rex

SAMMI has down graded the .38 special so many times that the new +P sometimes is less than the old standard load.
Google search John Taffin's .38 data.
My opinion is 6 grains Unique would do. 6.5 grains, I believe, gets toward .38 Hi-Power. I've done some things with 2400 but always shot them from a .357 revolver.
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joed
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Posted: 29 November 2017 at 9:34pm | IP Logged Quote joed

I don't think I will ever understand SAMMI.   I've heard they
downgrade because of older guns still being used. But that doesn't
make sense because the 9mm has been around longer then the .38
Spl and has never been downgraded to my knowledge.

With a cast bullet I'd believe 6.0 gr of Unique.   It is confusing as I
see differences in a few manuals.   I'm seeing 5.5 to 6.0 gr for +P.

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Ham Gunner
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Posted: 29 November 2017 at 10:12pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

I keep an old Speer #8 manual (1970) sitting here by my computer for sort of a quick reference, as I really do not use it for reloading. It is considered by many to have a few fairly warm loads here and there.

It shows the load that Rex and Joe recommended with 6.0 gr. Unique as max. for the 158gr. cast in .38 Special and with a 6" K-38 that gave 1,085 fps. +P loads today would likely not be much hotter if any.

Sure enough, I dug out my John Taffin data and it shows that he recommends that 6.0gr. Unique load for three different 158gr. cast bullets and he is calling them +P loads with velocity just over 1,000 fps out of his 4" barreled M19.

The #8 Speer data has a couple other loads that push the 158gr. cast on over 1,200 fps. HS-6 at 8.0gr. using mag. primer gave 1,201 fps out of the 6" K-38 and 9.0gr. SR4756 gave them 1,250 fps. And of course there is the 2400 load of 11.0gr. using mag primer gave them 1,155 fps. All were max of course and I would bet the 2400 load would really be a fire breather out of a short barrel. Not something I would want to fire at night.

I would think you have the proper powder with Unique for your ultralight and only you can decide how far you want to push the envelope.

Let us know how it works out.

Edited by Ham Gunner on 29 November 2017 at 10:19pm


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STCM(SW)
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Posted: 29 November 2017 at 10:38pm | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

My 1931 S&W HD 38/44 I shoot 11.0 gr of 2400 with a 158 Gr KSWC and works just fine.
But that's a N frame that was the basic for the S&W 357 Magnum and many were bored out to except 357 rounds, mine was not.

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Paul B.
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 1:48pm | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

On that Speer #8 loading manual, I'd be very leery about some of the
data. Seems they were using the older copper crusher method of
measuring pressures and some of the loads tested used the wrong
tarage table for the copper crush material. What it boils down to is some
of the load data in that manual is unsafe.
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rednekpaul
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Posted: 11 December 2017 at 6:50pm | IP Logged Quote rednekpaul

This stuff gives me 1000 fps out of my Taurus ultralite. I figure if Buffalo Bore can do it I can duplicate it. I`ll start with 5.5 grains Unique and work up from there. Thanks for your input everybody.


38 SPL +P OUTDOORSMAN
158 gr. Hard Cast Keith 1,250 fps
20 Round Box

PRESS RELEASE FOR BUFFALO BORE 38 SPL +P 158gr. HARD CAST OUTDOORSMAN

(ITEM 20H)

This load was designed for those who need a deep penetrating 357 mag. or 38 SPL load to be fired from lightweight alloy 357’s and any 38 SPL revolver. Lightweight alloy 357’s develop multiple problems when firing our 180gr. 357 mag. hard cast turbo charged (Item 19A) ammo or any make of full power 357 ammo. Yet many folks want a deep penetrating “outdoor” type of load for their lightweight pocket 357’s, so here it is. Whether you are shooting gators or bears in the head, this load utilizes a hard flat nosed bullet, at sufficient velocity, even from 2-inch barrels, to fully penetrate either.

This load is safe to shoot in all 38SPL and 357 magnum firearms of modern design that are in normal operating condition. In the super lightweight alloy revolvers (around 11-12 oz.) the bullet will not jump crimp under recoil provided you do not subject an unfired round to more than 5 or 6 firings. In all steel guns, even short barreled ones, crimp jump is not an issue as the all-steel snub nosed revolvers are much heavier than the alloy versions.

This load utilizes a flash retardant powder that will not blind the shooter in low light conditions, which is important as wildlife and criminals get much more active when darkness comes.

This bullet is hard cast and properly lubed and as such will not substantially lead your barrel. You should find no degradation of accuracy when firing many cylinders full of this ammo without cleaning.

We never use extra long laboratory barrels to produce our advertised velocities, which we feel is dishonest to the customer as those extra long barrels produce extra high velocities, which you cannot duplicate with stock revolvers in the real world. Instead, we use stock firearms and you can see the velocity results below.

➤   1255 fps -- Ruger GP 100, 6-inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤   1186 fps -- S&W Combat Masterpiece 6-inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1958)
➤   1146 fps -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch barrel, 357 Mag.
➤   1167 fps -- S&W Mod. 15, 4-inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1968)
➤   1112 fps -- Ruger SP 101, 3-inch barrel, 38 SPL
➤   1043 fps -- S&W Mod 66, 2.5-inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤     989 fps -- S&W Mod 340PD, 1 & 7/8-inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤   1027 fps -- S&W Mod 642 (pre dash), 1 & 7/8-inch barrel, 38 SPL
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richhodg66
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Posted: 11 December 2017 at 7:04pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

My daily carry gun is one of those Taurus 85 Ultra lights. Those sound like pretty ferocious loads for that little bitty pistol. The gun can take it for a while, I'm sure. Healthy loads like that hurt the web of my hand in it though.

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rednekpaul
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Posted: 11 December 2017 at 7:14pm | IP Logged Quote rednekpaul

richhodg66 wrote:
My daily carry gun is one of those Taurus 85 Ultra lights. Those sound like pretty ferocious loads for that little bitty pistol. The gun can take it for a while, I'm sure. Healthy loads like that hurt the web of my hand in it though.


Great carry guns as you don`t even know its there. Ya they buck pretty good when you touch one off. Have you ever shot a .357 mag in a Ultra lite? That would have to be brutal
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Rex
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Posted: 11 December 2017 at 7:42pm | IP Logged Quote Rex

I have used Mr. Skelton's load of 13.5 grains 2400 in a 38 case with a gas checked 358156 seated long. That is a very accurate load shot from my 4" 686 and as I recall went just a little over 1200 fps.
BUT, I wouldn't light that off in an ultra light for all the tea in China.
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RT58
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Posted: 12 December 2017 at 5:29am | IP Logged Quote RT58

joed wrote:
I don't think I will ever understand SAMMI.   I've heard they
downgrade because of older guns still being used. But that doesn't
make sense because the 9mm has been around longer then the .38
Spl and has never been downgraded to my knowledge.


When they set their specifications they take into account all the firearms and ammunition made for a caliber up to that time, as much as possible anyway. When they "downsize" it us usually due to problems that have occurred that may have been overlooked, a "new and improved" product, such as lightweight firearms, or etc.

The part that is hard to understand is that they lowered the +P pressure limits instead of simply not letting the gun manufacturers claim their firearms are +P rated, which would hurt sales I'm sure. As they say, "money talks".
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Old Ranger
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Posted: 12 December 2017 at 8:56am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Rex wrote:
I have used Mr. Skelton's load of 13.5
grains 2400 in a 38 case with a gas checked 358156 seated
long. That is a very accurate load shot from my 4" 686
and as I recall went just a little over 1200 fps.
BUT, I wouldn't light that off in an ultra light for all
the tea in China.


Ya know that's the load listed in my 1953 #39 Ideal
Handbook for .38 Special Hi Speed. It's HOT, and I'm with
you too. I wouldn't fire that in any lightweight weapon.


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rednekpaul
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Posted: 12 December 2017 at 6:43pm | IP Logged Quote rednekpaul

I think I found the solution. Instead of screwing around with the.38 Special +P designation just get a .357 mag.
I don`t think they made the .357 in a ultralite which is probably a good thing. The Taurus small frame polymers weigh in at 20 oz and the steel at 24 OZ. I think I`ll go with the steel. I can load down the .357 mag and get what I want. Easier then messing with whats a +P and whats not a +P.
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Rex
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Posted: 12 December 2017 at 7:28pm | IP Logged Quote Rex

Paul, my 4" S&W 686 shoots a 158 grain 357446 bullet over 6.5 grains Unique at around 1100 fps. I have enough arthritis in my lower thumb joints that this is about as far as I go with a .357.
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richhodg66
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Posted: 12 December 2017 at 8:31pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

This is where the .327 Federal is supposed to shine. Will attain .357 Magnum energy levels (I still have a hard time believing this) in a manageable sized, six shot revolver.

Don't get me wrong, I like .32s, just don't think I'd stake my life on one when the .357 is a proven performer.

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