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joed
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Posted: January 04 2018 at 8:42pm | IP Logged Quote joed

Rex and Ranch, you've given me hope!   We are supposed to go to a
chill of -24 Friday morning.   In the past 2 weeks I haven't seen a
temp above 12.    This may be the coldest winter I've seen yet, and
we still have the rest of Jan and Feb to go.

I'd love nothing better then to get out and shoot but even the range I
belong to is closed it's so cold here. We usually get your temps here
2 days later.


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Ranch 13
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Posted: January 04 2018 at 9:10pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Rex wrote:
Wish you fellows held one of those matches at old FT. Laramie.
Perfect spot and I could go watch.

Watch the schedule for the Alliance Rifle Club, there's a big match there the
first weekend in May, then a 1000 yd match the last part of July, then another
buffalo match I think the second weekend in August.

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Kosh75287
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Posted: January 07 2018 at 1:17pm | IP Logged Quote Kosh75287

I guess I'm lost on the notion of reloading fading away. I've never seen higher prices nor higher demand for components & equipment. Maybe I'm mistaking the movement of these items on the cost vs. demand curve as higher demand, rather than just a price correction.

I DO note that I spend a lot more time reloading in the months when it's too cold to shoot comfortably at the range or elsewhere. By the time the days warm up, I'm usually very well stocked on ammunition.

I piddle in IDPA with a 4" barrel Ruger Police Service Six in .357 Magnum. To make "major" with it, I must launch a 158 gr, RNFP at 1050 f/s (1045, to be exact), which requires loads well beyond the +P .38 Special spectrum, but somewhat short of the full-house factory .357 Magnum's capabilities.

To get max performance from the .357, loads like 15.0/2400/158gr.LSWC or 16.5/H110/158gr are used, and are far more powerful than necessary for action pistol competition. Loads using less than half those amounts of Alliant Unique or Herco will comfortably and more economically exceed the minimum velocity required, without beating up a revolver. If economy becomes a paramount concern, propellants like Red Dot, IMR-700X, 231, and others will deliver "major ballistics" with charges weighing 1/3 to 40% those required of the slower burning powders for max performance.

No commercial ammunition manufacturer can turn a profit by producing loads like this for .357, let alone the other cartridges to which such constraints apply. The ability of the individual reloader to match the best load for his individual weapon for a particular purpose is where another appealing aspect of reloading by the individual seems here to stay.

Just thinking out loud...

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Rex
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Posted: January 07 2018 at 2:11pm | IP Logged Quote Rex

I probably shoot a 357 load much like yours. I use 6.5 grains Unique with a 158 grain 357446 bullet that I cast. That's about all the arthritis in my lower thumb joints like but from my 4" 686 Smith, over my chrony it reads just short of 1100. If I lay off for a while I start with 4.5 grains HP38 with the same bullet in a 38 special case to learn sight picture and trigger squeeze again.
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Paul B.
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Posted: January 07 2018 at 4:52pm | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

Ranch 13 wrote:
dahlin wrote:
Rex I had planned on not
posting any more but I feel this is
important The old Lyman book from way back when was before they
had the
sensitive pressure testing equipment hope this helps Randy


Yes but what to do when a person has been using data from that book
and
older versions from when they were hot off the press, and the load
works just
as well today as it did then?


Let's just keep this simple. These days one can buy a chronograph
rather inexpensively. The lowest price Shooting Chrony is more than
accurate enough for the purpose. As the question regarded the 6.5
Swede in a milsurp action, use the chronograph to duplicate the
original loadings. If the 6.5 Swede is in a modern action like a
Winchester M70 one can fudge to a degree on the upper end.

Case in point, there are many rifles in 7x57 based on the older and
weaker M93 and M95 Mauser actions and factory ammo is kept to a
lower pressure level because of those rifles. So if one were to load say
a 140 gr. Nosler to hunt deer or elk, one would work up to the factory
level of 2600 FPS (advertised) Trust me, some don't even come close)
Same with a 175 gr. bullet. Advertised is 2450 FPS but again, they
don't even come close, at least not in the three rifles I use. I can safely
push a 150 gr. Nosler to a comfortable 2700 FPS in my M70 FWT, but
only by using a chronograph.

Same thing with the .35 Whelen. Neither factory load reaches
advertised velocity in my .35 Whelen rifles. They're held back due to
Remington wanting to use them in their pump and semiauto rifles.
Seems they didn't learn from history. Think .280 Remington.

So the loading manual says 35.0 gr. of powder X gives a 130 gr. bullet
in the .270 Win. 3000 FPS. The chronograph will tell you if it does just
that in your rifle, and I'll lay odds it won't.
Paul B.
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Ranch 13
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Posted: January 07 2018 at 7:02pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

A chronograph definitely is a handy tool to have, however trying to gauge
pressures from the velocity readings is a fools folly at best. A quick read thru
any good manual that gives pressure and velocity will demonstrate that rather
quickly.


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Kosh75287
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Posted: January 07 2018 at 10:43pm | IP Logged Quote Kosh75287

Quote:
I probably shoot a 357 load much like yours. I use 6.5 grains Unique with a 158 grain 357446 bullet that I cast.

I'm not sure how closely the bullet you mention resembles mine, but we're within 0.2gr. on charge weight. Rarely, Herco seems to perform better, but requires 5 to 8% more powder.

Quote:
So the loading manual says 35.0 gr. of powder X gives a 130 gr. bullet in the .270 Win. 3000 FPS. The chronograph will tell you if it does just that in your rifle, and I'll lay odds it won't.
I'm INCLINED to agree, but within what margin are you willing to claim that the chronograph & loading manual will differ? If the same load is fired from 2 rifles of the same type, particularly with identical barrel lengths & stock barrels, I'd be very confident that average velocities will be within 10% of each other. I'd be LESS confident that the average velocities would be within 5% of each other, but I might STILL take the bet. For the same load to deliver velocities within 2% from the 2 rifles seems a remote possibility to me, but not out of the question.

Quote:
A chronograph definitely is a handy tool to have, however trying to gauge pressures from velocity readings is a fool's folly at best. A quick read thru any good manual that gives pressure and velocity will demonstrate that rather quickly.

I don't know of a good way to correlate velocities with chamber pressures, either. MY contention is that, as the gain in velocity (f/s) per additional 0.1gr. propellant begins to flatten out, his an EXCELLENT sign that more propellant will gain little, and (for all one knows) will elevate pressures. Ostensibly, this "flattening" of the velocity vs. charge weight should be viewed as a sign to back off, ASSUMING no other signs of pressure (case dyscrasias) are detected.
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Buffalogun
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Posted: January 08 2018 at 7:07am | IP Logged Quote Buffalogun

Kosh75287 wrote:
[QUOTE]I don't know of a good way to correlate velocities with chamber pressures, either. MY contention is that, as the gain in velocity (f/s) per additional 0.1gr. propellant begins to flatten out, his an EXCELLENT sign that more propellant will gain little, and (for all one knows) will elevate pressures. Ostensibly, this "flattening" of the velocity vs. charge weight should be viewed as a sign to back off, ASSUMING no other signs of pressure (case dyscrasias) are detected.


I have used this method myself and think it has much merit. The chronograph is your friend.

While its true the pressure/velocity figures found in the loading manuals represent only the loads and equipment used in generating that data in the lab and do not indicate the pressures/velocities the consumer can expect from his equipment and components, it beats the heck out of using traditional signs such as hard bolt lift, flattened primers and case appearance for judging when its time to back off.

The hardness of brass cases and primer cups varies too much for me to trust them alone.
Chambers aren't always reamed completely round or even smooth, either of which can contribute to hard bolt lift.
Measuring case diameter has merit if used with new cases, but brass "work hardens" and using the same case several times will give false impressions.

In my own loading, I usually find a very accurate load before I reach the point of diminishing returns. And, I never try to go over the book velocity max.



Mike

Edited by Buffalogun on January 08 2018 at 7:12am


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Ranch 13
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Posted: January 08 2018 at 8:13am | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Two good examples of velocity not being what the books say that I have ran
across is the data from RL 12 (now discontinued) in the 30-30, I got no where
near the velocity claimed in the data in my rifles, and the other is LILgun in the
41 magnum. Granted my 41 is a 4 5/8 barrel, there was no way to get anywhere
close to the claimed velocity when LILgun first came out, the case's simply
couldn't hold enough powder to get there.

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cpg
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Posted: January 08 2018 at 8:44am | IP Logged Quote cpg

I'm still at it, made another batch of the 30/30 gallery loads on Saturday when it was still single digits outside! Next cold snap I might crank out some 357's. Still need to mess around with the S&B LP primers I bought a while ago and see how they work.

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LAH
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Posted: January 12 2018 at 4:56pm | IP Logged Quote LAH

dahlin wrote:
Well folks my post above will probably
be my last post you can chase your self around your
little circle all day long if you wish. Thank you very
much Randy


Did I miss something?

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Rex
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Posted: January 12 2018 at 6:17pm | IP Logged Quote Rex

Not that I know of?????
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Paul B.
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Posted: January 13 2018 at 1:04pm | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

Ranch 13 wrote:
A chronograph definitely is a handy tool to have,
however trying to gauge
pressures from the velocity readings is a fools folly at best. A quick
read thru
any good manual that gives pressure and velocity will demonstrate that
rather
quickly.


Not sure I agree with that. A powder, regardless of burning rate is
designed to operate within certain pressure parameters. Too low or too
high a pressure and then things get squirrelly or even outright
dangerous. We've all heard of the S.E.E. thing where a gun shows very
high pressure with the load as either starting charge or slightly lower.
This is normally encountered with powders like the 4350's and slower.
One the other end with max loads (from the book) and above, several
results are possible. Velocity can remain unchanged with the next
increase in charge or velocity can make a big jump in speed or even
show a reduction in speed.
As charges increase from the starting load, velocity for the most part
will increase in a linear fashion. Say 50 FPS per grain, plus or minus
about 10 FPS. Point is, if one were to plot the increase on a graph, the
increase would be in a rather smooth rise. The sudden radical deviation
up, down or in a straight line would warn the handloader that he's at
the point where backing off about grain or a grain and a half
constitutes what will be a safe load for the rifle.
It's also a good way to be certain if you're actually duplicating factory
loads. Note that factory 30-06 doesn't come within the advertised
2700 FPS in a 22" barrel nor even a 24" barrel for a 180 gr. load. I only
got 2700 FPS from the 26" barrel of a Ruger #1 yet safely reached
2700 FPS in a Remington M700 Classic and BDL with 22" barrel..
Other cartridges are downloaded for one reason or another, the 7x57
Mauser, .280 Rem. and .35 Whelen amongst others. The .280 and .35
are held back for Remington's pump and semi-auto rifles.
My point is the use of a chronograph is one way of telling you that you
might be going too far. I never said it was a way of telling what the
pressure of a load was, just when you were passing the point of the top
level parameter for that particular powder. Just one more way to help
keeping yourself out of trouble.
Paul B.
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