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Tom W.
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Posted: March 10 2018 at 12:59pm | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

I got a CZ 75 SP-01 about two weeks ago. I like it just fine, but it doesn't like the same loads that I shot in my Glocks ( which have since been traded or sold) or my Ruger LC9sPro. I had to seat the cast bullets deeper, and the last time I went to the range I still had four failures to go into battery. I'm shooting cast bullets, the Lee 124 gr TC sized to .358

I was rather excited to get the handgun, so I cleaned it and grabbed two boxes of handloads and went to the range. Well, I failed to see if the loads passed the 'plunk test."

Turns out that they didn't. Three or four shots and again failure to go into battery. I could scrape lead from the unfired brass case with my thumbnail. After doing so the round would chamber and fire. I came home, cleaned the pistol again and re-seated a whole bunch of rounds. It went a lot smoother, but still had a 4% failure rate for battery.
I'm going to send the barrel to a 'smith in N.C. to throat it. I know 9mm rounds are as common as fire ants but I LIKE to cast bullets and handload. I just have to sell some dies and molds to finance my endeavor. I don't hunt anymore, just mostly shoot at an indoor range. I usually end up bringing home a LOT more once fired brass than I took with me...

Edited by Tom W. on March 10 2018 at 1:00pm


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turbo1889
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Posted: March 11 2018 at 4:58am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

They let you shoot cast at an indoor
range?

I haven't been to very many indoor ranges
but the few I have been too required total
metal jacket, plated bullets, or soft
point or hollow point bullets be used.
Basically no lead exposed on the base to
the hot propellent gases or on the sides
to The barrel to cause leading.

Apparently any exposed lead on the base of
the bullet or in the bore due to leading
of the bore can have a small
amount vaporized by the heat of firing and
it can build up in the air in indoor
ranges.

Or at least that is what the few I have
been too claimed.

Edited by turbo1889 on March 11 2018 at 5:00am


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RECURVE
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Posted: March 11 2018 at 3:26pm | IP Logged Quote RECURVE

Don't know how us bullet casters live to be 71 or more
hopefully
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Ham Gunner
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Posted: March 11 2018 at 8:35pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

The lead chemicals in the primers produces more lead in the air than the bullets possibly could, but then why get all scientific? Indoor gun ranges likely have to go by whatever rules that their insurance carrier comes up with whether there is truth in them or not.

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richhodg66
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Posted: March 12 2018 at 4:36am | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

Ham Gunner wrote:
The lead chemicals in the primers produces more lead in the air than the bullets possibly could, but then why get all scientific? Indoor gun ranges likely have to go by whatever rules that their insurance carrier comes up with whether there is truth in them or not.


Reason # 4,386,271 that I hate indoor ranges. But Ham is spot on, the stuff in priming compounds is more of a problem than anything the bullets can produce.

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RT58
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Posted: March 12 2018 at 6:29am | IP Logged Quote RT58

A guy I worked with opened an indoor range, shortly before he passed away. The insurance company issues were nothing compared to the EPA's.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: March 12 2018 at 6:52am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Tom,

Since everyone is fascinated by the indoor range rather
than the dilemma with your pistol, I will try to address
your problem.

1. Have you tried any Factory loads?
2. Rather than size .358" go to .357" perhaps. I suspect
your chamber is tighter And more precise than what your
former Glocks were. They are known to be a mite "sloppy".
3. Approximately how soft is your alloy where as you can
have it so compressed upon loading that you can shave
lead with your thumb nail off of the case? Perhaps a
harder alloy and sizing a little more to the 9mm
parameters would cure your problem.

I realize that my post deviates from the mainstream of
the conversation, but I thought it was more appropriate
to resolving your problem with your pistol and load. I
hope that you can work out the bugs with your loading.

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turbo1889
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Posted: March 12 2018 at 8:11am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Actually old ranger your not off topic but
rather steering it back on course after I
ran the the thread off into the boonies!

Your suggestions are good but it sounds to
me like he wants one load that will work
in all his guns. Dropping down to 0.357"
may cure the problem with this gun but
mean it won't work in his other guns which
need the larger 0.358" size.

Hardening up the alloy as you suggested is
probably a good idea. But if he is
getting lead on the outside of his cases
and shaving it off with his fingernails is
fixing the issue it almost sounds to me
like his case mouths aren't being belled
open enough in the mouth before he seats
the boolits and he is shaving leaf when
seating the boolits and these shavings are
getting stuck to the outside of the case.
Is previous guns having sloppy enough
chambers for them to still chamber that
way but his new gun being tighter this
showing up now.

If that is the issue then just a half
twist on the mouth belling die to open up
the case mouths a bit more should help a
lot. In addition sometimes separating the
bullet seating and crimping into two
separate steps can also sometimes solve
issues like this since seating and
crimping together in a combined operation
can sometimes shave the lead forward of
the case moth just slightly and make the
lead bulge up on the case mouth so that it
interferes with the case mouth headspace
against the end of the chamber preventing
the cartridge from fully seating in the
chamber.

At least that is my $0.02 on what I would
look at from how he described his problem.

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Tom W.
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Posted: March 12 2018 at 11:57am | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

Oh, the cartridges are just as pretty as factory loads when I load them. No visible lead on the brass at all. I'm wondering if the feed ramp is some of the problem. As the Ruger and Glock would eat anything fed to them, I'm thinking that this pistol is a tad bit tighter, it doesn't have much of a throat. I have had a few FMJ loads through it, and it did fine. I may look for a different mold. The one I'm using is the Lee 356-120 TC. It casts somewhat large, so sizing to .358 isn't a problem. I use White Label Lube's Carnauba red, with no leading. The alloy is straight wheel weights. I don't hot-rod my loads, I generally load by the book just above mid-range loads. And I have Lyman, Hornady and Nosler load manuals, as well as what's available on the web from powder manufacturers.

The range hasn't any compunctions about shooting lead. Just no rifle calibers.

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LAH
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Posted: March 12 2018 at 6:57pm | IP Logged Quote LAH

You can shoot lead indoors here.

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RT58
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Posted: March 13 2018 at 9:06am | IP Logged Quote RT58

Tom, If you are looking for suggestions to the feeding issue, I'd agree with your idea of trying a different cast bullet. The nose profile of the Lee bullet may not be suitable to your pistol, even with trying different seating depths.

It could also be due to your alloy not being hard enough and causing too much friction while feeding, even though they worked fine in other makes of pistols.
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Tom W.
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Posted: March 13 2018 at 9:48am | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

Thanks. I've been thinking that this pistol just doesn't like this bullet. I'm looking hard at the Lee 358-125 RF and see what it does. I have a similar 6 cavity mold, the Lee 358-158-RF, but nothing to shoot them out of. I may load a few dummy loads with that bullet seated just past the crimp groove and see what happens. If it does well maybe the 125 gr. will be the way to go.

My LGS is getting out of the handloading business, and anything for 9mm is gone. There were some 90 gr. FMJ bullets but those are kinda small, and by now they are gone....

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Tom W.
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Posted: March 13 2018 at 11:50am | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

Update:
I went to the shed with my new pistol, changed the seating stem out on my seating die and made an dummy load with the .358-158 RF Lee. It looked good, so I dropped it into my barrel and let the slide go forward under full spring pressure. The slide locked, but when I went to extract the round I had the same trouble. I got it out and looked under a magnifying glass. There was a tiny sliver of lead. Sooo.... I lowered my flairing die stem just a tad and tried again with another piece of brass and a new bullet. That one seated and ejected just fine. Well, I took two of the TC cast bullets and seated them, and tried with the hopes that things would work. Again, these both loaded and ejected just fine!

Thanks to all for the suggestions. I've been loading since the mid '70's, but I'll never say that I know it all...And it seems that after I had my Chemo sometimes my mind has a brain fart..

I had a small cardboard box that I had cleaned, sized and flaired last week, it looks like I'm going to have to open them up just a tad more as suggested here earlier. If I feel up to going, there is a range trip sometime this week...

Now.... has anyone loaded a 158 gr. cast bullet in a 9mm with success?

Edited by Tom W. on March 13 2018 at 11:57am


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turbo1889
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Posted: March 13 2018 at 1:24pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Tom W. wrote:
. . . .

Now.... has anyone loaded a 158 gr. cast
bullet in a 9mm with success?



Yes, but it has been a few years and I
don't remember the exact combination I
finally got to work.

It's not so much of a problem making the
gun go bang safely (you have to compensate
for the deep seating of the boolit which
increases pressure as well as the
unusually heavy boolit weight for
cartridge) as it is finding a combination
that will reliably cycle the guns action.

That's the hard part and not every boolit
shape will work and a lot depends on the
gun the load is intended for as well.

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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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turbo1889
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Posted: March 13 2018 at 2:25pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Found some of my old load notes on 158gr.
In 9mm. My old load notes call for 0.40cc
Lee auto disk with Accurate#9 powder.
According to the chart for the auto disk
set that is a 6.1gr. powder charge. It is
listed in my notes as a full case and/or
compressed load. Exact bullet not
specified in my notes and COAL is simply
listed as "MtFiM" which is "Max that Fits
in Magazine".

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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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LAH
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Posted: March 13 2018 at 3:34pm | IP Logged Quote LAH

I have a CZ 75 Pre B. It handles bullets sized .358"
just fine but my S&W M&P autos won't.

This is probably old news to you but here's how I do it.
Remove your barrel & insert a sized case into the barrel
till it headspaces on the shoulder of the lead. You
should feel it touch the shoulder.

Next I seat the bullet I wish to use into the case
"long" & remove the bell. Then try the plunk test. If
you don't feel the case mouth contact the barrel
shoulder then shorten the OAL of the round & try again.
Repeat till the round will headspace on the rim.

Next I check if the round will fit the magazine. After
this I load a mag & try the pistol. If it feeds you're
ready to go. If not it is most likely a feed issue not a
chambering issue.

On one of my M&P guns it would pass the plunk text but
would still have a failure to completely chamber a time
or two per mag. I changed to .357" diameter & the
problem went away.

BTW my CZ feeds the Lee 38-125-RF with no problems &
with no more bullet inside the case than my beloved
Saeco #928. Below is a picture of the bullet.



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Tom W.
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Posted: March 13 2018 at 5:31pm | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

Tomorrow I'm going to seat some dummy loads back to where I started to see if the will chamber properly. I'm thinking that they will, now that I've flared them a tad bit more. If they do I'll load a box to take to the range and try them.

LAH, as I'm not going to be killing anything but paper (God Willing) those bullets look nice. I always like a big lube groove...

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LAH
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Posted: March 13 2018 at 6:22pm | IP Logged Quote LAH

I like the Saeco #928 but working now with the Lee 38-
125-RF as I like the meplat. The Saeco works great though
in my 38 sixguns. They feed like butter from a
speedloader.

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: March 14 2018 at 10:03am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder


Tom W.

First off your gun is a really good choice, as soon as you get over this "speed bump" you will be well satisfied with the gun. I have been reloading for 60 years and the 9 presented a learning curve.

The failure to go to battery can be a result of a roll crimp instead of a taper crimp.

Another difficulty can be in using a bullet without a crimp groove, if you seat and crimp in the same operation. Doing so can throw up a bit of lead in front of the mouth of the case producing an obstruction, keeping the gun from going into battery.

The biggest bullet I use in my 9s is the Lee 358-125, a bullet that works well in all of my 9s.

You have what you have, and your bullet should work. I found that with bullets in the 150-160 weight range they needed to be made of pretty hard alloy.

As Wade suggested you need to slug your barrel. .358 may be a bit too much.

There are lots of articles about using the heavier bullets in the 9 and those I have read pretty universally say that they are soft shooting and very accurate.

I shot a batch of the Lyman 357446 bullets which is a 160+ gr. SWC, They were pretty soft alloy, but seemed to shoot well in my Ruger (356 barrel) bullets sized to .357. I just did some close range shooting, they appeared to shoot well, but when I recovered the bullets out of the snow. They had gone for SWC to looking like little "dumbells".. I believe a function of very soft alloy and the very fast twist of the 9mm.

Here is an article by the folks at Beartooth Bullets, hope it gives you some incite. (https://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_no tes.htm/18) I think you are on the right path, and when you find the problem it is going to be something simple, perhaps bullet diameter and a seating crimp issue.   



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Tom W.
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Posted: March 14 2018 at 7:18pm | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

So far it seems like I hadn't flared my cases enough. I went to the shed today and loaded a box @ the same COL as the ones I fed my last three 9mm. 1.063

They seemed to load just fine, no problems, no sticky extraction.( These were first checked w/ dummy rounds.)

The only thing I can think of is somehow My die moved a bit and didn't realize it. Or else I didn't screw it all the way in. I'm fully claiming operator error, until I find different. Just because I've been doing this since the mid '70's doesn't mean I can't make a mistake...

I don't think I'm going to try any heavy bullets in the pistol. If need be I'll get the 125 gr mold from Lee and trade off or sell the 158 gr. mold. I haven't had it but a few months, and like I said, I sold the revolver that used those bullets. I have a Lyman 2 cavity 148 gr DEWC that has got to find a new home, as well as some RCBS .45 molds. One I have was mis-cut by RCBS and was supposed to be a SWC, but turned out to have the same nose profile as the RCBS 476-400 that I had...

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