Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  

Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc
Cast Bullets
 Handloads.Com Forum : Cast Bullets
Subject Topic: cananuba red or blue? Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
Rex
Senior Member




Joined: June 01 2004
Location: ;Paxton, Ne.
Posts: 3559
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 22 2018 at 6:10pm | IP Logged Quote Rex

Would like to try some White Label lube for my .38 bullets. I've never used C-red or his new C-blue. Has anyone used these two in a pan lubing application? Has anyone used the new C-blue? Any reason why either of these wouldn't work in a mild to not too wild load?
.357 loads to target loads in .357 case.
Thanks,
Rex
Back to Top View Rex's Profile Search for other posts by Rex
 
richhodg66
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: December 13 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4353
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 22 2018 at 7:15pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

I've gone to using just standard NRA formula lube exclusively except when I use the Lee liquid stuff. I really believe a lot of casters make more of what difference bullet lubes make. Maybe in some limited applications one is better than others, but I'm sticking with standard NRA formula unless it involves black powder.

I'm probably not much help, sorry. Why are you pan lubing?

__________________
"The secret to happiness is freedom, and the secret to freedom is courage."
Back to Top View richhodg66's Profile Search for other posts by richhodg66
 
Rex
Senior Member




Joined: June 01 2004
Location: ;Paxton, Ne.
Posts: 3559
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 22 2018 at 7:16pm | IP Logged Quote Rex

Rich, I have a pan and not a lube-sizer.
Back to Top View Rex's Profile Search for other posts by Rex
 
doghawg
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: February 12 2005
Location: Wisc.
Posts: 1817
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 22 2018 at 8:07pm | IP Logged Quote doghawg

Rex

I've had good performance from Carnauba Red and it's hard enough that bullets do not stick together. It requires heat in a lubri-sizer but that's not an issue if you're pan lubing. I use it with .45/70 loads in the 1500 fps range and in .454 at 1100 to 1300 fps or so without any leading issues.
I also like their BAC which is softer but bullets lubed with it don't store well and, in my experience, are best stacked rather than just tossed in a can. They usually go from the sizer directly into .45 ACP cases.
This C-Blue is a new one on me. Gonna have to check that out.

Randy

__________________
Unless you're the lead sled dog the scenery never changes.
Back to Top View doghawg's Profile Search for other posts by doghawg
 
richhodg66
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: December 13 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4353
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 23 2018 at 4:09am | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

Rex wrote:
Rich, I have a pan and not a lube-sizer.


Fair enough. What do you use to cut them out of the pan with? Lee used to make those neat little cutters to do that with, but I don't think they do anymore.

__________________
"The secret to happiness is freedom, and the secret to freedom is courage."
Back to Top View richhodg66's Profile Search for other posts by richhodg66
 
Rex
Senior Member




Joined: June 01 2004
Location: ;Paxton, Ne.
Posts: 3559
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 23 2018 at 5:39am | IP Logged Quote Rex

Rich, I made a cutter out of a 303 case and drilled a hole in the primer end large enough for a small bolt to slide through. You can pinch the cutter end a hair with a crimper if needed and sharpen the mouth a bit with a chamfer tool. Sit the bullets in the wax holes left by the previous batch and put the (tin skillet in my case) on the hot plate. Melt the wax on low temp setting and let cool. Cut the bullets out while the wax still has some temperature, it's easier if it is still just warm and a little softer. By letting the bullet and wax heat together I think the wax clings better to the bullet.
I push them through a Lee sizer before all of this and yes I'd like to have a lube sizer but the Dow fell 724 points yesterday.

Edited by Rex on March 23 2018 at 5:41am
Back to Top View Rex's Profile Search for other posts by Rex
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3754
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 23 2018 at 6:09am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Rember using Lyman "Kake Kutter" and the Lee cutters long
ago, but over the years they've become lost. Like Rex, I
cut and trim rifle cases to fit. Also, in the past few
years I simply dip the bullet into the hot wax for about
5 seconds and then place it on waxed paper. Once cool,
the bullet is pushed through an Ideal sizing chamber with
the 310 tool. But that's for when I'm feeling nostalgic.
Since 1975 or so I've been mostly using a 450
lubrication/sizing press.

Back to Rex's original question. I have shot commercial
cast rounds with the red lube. Did quite well. Not much
leading. 38/357, 44Spl/44Mag, & 45Colt have been loaded
and shot with the red stuff. Never used it on my own as
my 450 is an old design without a heater. Besides, if I
gotta warm it up I use a hairdryer with a desklamp to
help maintain the heat. But I digress....
The red stuff did not smear from one to another in a box.
Worked well even when pushed a might. And didn't stink up
the air on the range or put nasty gunk on the weapon like
Lee's LLA! My vote: ok lube and oughta do ok pan
lubed.

Edited by Old Ranger on March 23 2018 at 6:10am


__________________
"I am not politically correct. I don't apologise for being American. I stand by my country and have no use for anyone who does not."

The Old Ranger
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
turbo1889
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: August 08 2006
Location: Montana, U.S.A.
Posts: 1685
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 23 2018 at 6:11am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

I use the red on some pretty heavy loads
with little issues. It stores well,
unlike my own receipe based off a posted
receipe by a guy up in Alaska that uses 2-
cycle mix oil as it's active ingredient.

I will note though thay for some of my
more extreme stress cast boolit loads like
pushing plain base rifle boolits beyond
2,000-fps and maintaining accuracy don't
work with the C-red alone and it is
necessary to do a combined solution of the
C-red in the lube grooves and then dipping
the exposed nose of the boolits after
loading in a mix of JPW with just a touch
of liquid-alox so that it dries to a hard
varnish.

Long story short C-red will do what most
people want out of a boolit lube and
stores well. But if you are really
pushing the outer limits then it alone
won't cut it and you need to combine it
with a dip lub coating or use some
variation of 2-cycle oil active ingredient
based lube like the original speed green
formula or one of the similar formulas.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
Back to Top View turbo1889's Profile Search for other posts by turbo1889
 
Rex
Senior Member




Joined: June 01 2004
Location: ;Paxton, Ne.
Posts: 3559
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 23 2018 at 6:54am | IP Logged Quote Rex

The reason I'm looking at a commercial lube is that my old beeswax/vaseline mix works pretty good until I got to 13 grains 2400. Then the cylinder, forcing cone and barrel were clean up to the last 1/2" or so of the barrel where chunks of lead were deposited. This doesn't happen with slower loads. I am assuming that I have run out of lube before I ran out of barrel. Maybe my mix was too soft and blew out before it should have?
Back to Top View Rex's Profile Search for other posts by Rex
 
richhodg66
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: December 13 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4353
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 23 2018 at 8:47am | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

So many thoughts;

The nose lube Turbo mention is a good idea and I have done that on bore riding noses of rifle bullets using liquid alox. There is actually a recipe a gentleman on castboolits posted, basically 60/40 mix of liquid alox and Johnson's liquid floor wax. Makes a thin, relatively hard finish on bullets that works, at least on pistol bullets I've tried and it works very well and less messy than liquid alox.

I have a system set up for dipping bullets with liquid alox. I use an old musket cap tin, fill it about a half inch deep with lube, thining it with mineral spirits as needed, then keep it on one of these coffee cup warmers you can get cheap which keeps it surprisingly hot so it flows well. I take hold of the bullet by the nose and dip them. A pair of spark plug pliers helps keep your fingers out of hot bullet lube. I set them on wax paper on their bases and this keeps the nose clean so as to not gum up seating dies. The biggest problem I've found with liquid lubes is using too much of it. This works best.

I have a heater on my 450 even though I use soft lubes. My shop is unheated and sometimes that heater is necessary. It helps lube flow into the grooves better when it's warm anyway.

My dad left me all kinds of stuff when we moved him out of his house including tons of cast bullets in all kinds of calibers. I found a container of Lyman 311466 he had sized, checked and lubed and the lid to the container had deteriorated and dust got in them in his barn. I boiled the lube off of them and have been loading them as plinking loads in an old .30-06 I've been playing with using 11 grains of Alcan 120 which burns like Red Dot. I got curious and just grabbed an open tube of bearing grease (can't remember the brand) and since I'd just load a few at a time to shoot off the front porch, I just smeared some of that on each one prior to seating. Obviously a real soft lube, but accuracy is pretty good, seems to smoke less than Alox and cleanup is a breeze, just a few swabs with Ed's red and a dry patch and she's good to go, not a trace of leading.

I haven't pan lubed anything in years and never did it much. I have found what works best in my .38-55 is the Lee 250 grainer unsized. I've been using that dipping method I described, maybe I'll try some pan lubing.

Use whatever works, but I really do think a lot of us read too much into different kinds of bullet lubes. I honestly can't remember but one time in many years that I got any real leading in anything and it happened because I pushed plain based bullets harder than I should have, and I knew I was pushing them harder than I should and expected leading as a result, but I was trying to prove or disprove something in a particular rifle with a particular bullet. Loading things the right way, leading never happens for me.

__________________
"The secret to happiness is freedom, and the secret to freedom is courage."
Back to Top View richhodg66's Profile Search for other posts by richhodg66
 
Rex
Senior Member




Joined: June 01 2004
Location: ;Paxton, Ne.
Posts: 3559
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 23 2018 at 11:09am | IP Logged Quote Rex

Rich, I believe you are absolutely correct. I do have gas checked bullets but I guess it's probably a case of an old man not having enough to do so I try things that don't really work just to see. I recall Mr. Keith running some pretty wild loads down the barrel and never having a bit of lead left behind. I wouldn't say this was false for anything in the world but I'll just scratch my head a little. At any rate the figuring and trying are a fun way to kill time and that's about all I have anyway.
Back to Top View Rex's Profile Search for other posts by Rex
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3754
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 23 2018 at 11:20am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

When feeling nostalgic for the sizing chambers of the 310
tool, I'll dip my bullets base first, into a blend of
Minwax Paste Finishing Wax. Sometimes a little Beeswax is
mixed with it for strength. Thing is though this mixture
is somewhat fragile, and will flake off the bullet within
a day or two, it is remarkably good for providing bullet
lubrication. I have fired as many as 100 rounds through a
38 special with the paste wax coated bullets and the bore
was mirror-bright! It looked as if it had been polished.
Remarkable. However, if you load within say, two to three
hours after lubrication and sizing, you are good to go.
Once loaded there is no deterioration of the lubrication
then because the case prevents Any loss.

But to be fair there are so many different lubrication
formulas Devised by Shooters over the years that one
cannot keep up with it at all. And as Rich said, just use
what works.

__________________
"I am not politically correct. I don't apologise for being American. I stand by my country and have no use for anyone who does not."

The Old Ranger
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
Ham Gunner
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Ozark, Missouri
Posts: 5442
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 23 2018 at 11:46am | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

"In summary, bullet lube is pumped from the lube groove to the barrel surface by compression, linear acceleration and radial acceleration. In addition, lube is injected forward during the firing process, as the result of high-pressure gas leakage into the lube groove. This injection process forms a floating fluid gasket around the bullet, and serves to limit gas cutting and is a kind of ballistic stop-leak. Hard lubes must first melt before they can be pumped or injected by any of these mechanisms. By incorporating moly into the mix, the lube delivered to the barrel surface can serve to prevent adhesion of future leading deposits by passivating the steel surface."
- Glen E. Fryxell

C.E. Harris even back in the 50's praised lubes containing even a small amount of Moly that would deposit a film onto the bore that would help lubricate the bore for the next bullet to be fired. I think many today are revisiting what Harris discovered years ago.

I have no idea about what the Red or Blue lubes contain, but I do personally think that many commercial handgun bullets that contain red and blue types are lubed with overly hard lubes to help keep the lubed bullets from sticking together during shipping. Their lubes might work with higher pressure loads, but the small amount of experience I have had with commercially lubed bullets that I loaded for friends in handguns was a bit disappointing compared to the results from NRA lube or my homemade NRA type lube that has just a smidgen of Moly. My lube is about 49% beeswax to 49% Allox with a small amount of what scrap Carnauba Wax I had saved up along with a few tablespoons of Moly grease and a handful or two of green crayons to give it an olive drab color.

For storage of bullets before loading I do stack them alternating next to each other in boxes to keep the lube from becoming stuck to each other, but the lube performs well for me even in the high pressure magnum handgun and just as well in up to 2,000 fps rifle loads.

I might find some ingredients for the red and blue lubes by doing a small amount of reading in some of my data. If I do I will repost what I find.


Edited by Ham Gunner on March 23 2018 at 12:08pm


__________________
73 de n0ubx Rick - NRA BENEFACTOR LIFE MEMBER/VFW LIFE MEMBER - A government big enough to GIVE you
everything you want, is strong enough to TAKE everything you have. - Thomas Jefferson

Back to Top View Ham Gunner's Profile Search for other posts by Ham Gunner
 
richhodg66
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: December 13 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4353
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 23 2018 at 12:04pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

Glenn Fryxwell posted a video a while back of his lube recipe and it was one 14 oz tube of some kind of moly based automotive grease and an equal part of bees wax if I recall. Mixed in a double boiler. I don't think many of use will argue his expertise and knowledge.

Bottom line, I have enough standard NRA formula and liquid alox to last an awful long time so I won't be joining in on testing of new lubes much. But I am interested, so by all means post results of your findings.

__________________
"The secret to happiness is freedom, and the secret to freedom is courage."
Back to Top View richhodg66's Profile Search for other posts by richhodg66
 
Ham Gunner
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Ozark, Missouri
Posts: 5442
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 23 2018 at 12:45pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

Well, there is just far too many threads out there to read to find out just what is in the commercial lubes, but this "sticky" posting from Castboolits site lists lots of lubes. Some are simple and some not so simple, but great reading nonetheless.

Lubes

__________________
73 de n0ubx Rick - NRA BENEFACTOR LIFE MEMBER/VFW LIFE MEMBER - A government big enough to GIVE you
everything you want, is strong enough to TAKE everything you have. - Thomas Jefferson

Back to Top View Ham Gunner's Profile Search for other posts by Ham Gunner
 
Rex
Senior Member




Joined: June 01 2004
Location: ;Paxton, Ne.
Posts: 3559
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 23 2018 at 4:34pm | IP Logged Quote Rex

I had some 357446 bullets that I had lubed with my homemade concoction so I filled a jar lid with some White Label 45-45-10 tumble lube diluted pretty good with mineral spirits and dipped the bullets in that and set them on a sheet of wax paper.
I've got gas check bullets but those 446 bullets with 2400 are so accurate at 25 yards that I'll use them even if I have to buy a damn Lewis Lead Remover and I don't think I will.


Edit to correct spelling

Edited by Rex on March 23 2018 at 4:36pm
Back to Top View Rex's Profile Search for other posts by Rex
 
Ham Gunner
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Ozark, Missouri
Posts: 5442
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 23 2018 at 9:53pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

When I first started out casting using a 10 lb. cast iron pot with a dipper over a Coleman stove and Lee loader reloading tools, I also pan lubed. I used the Lee tools to cut the bullets out of the lube and the Lee sizing tools that required pounding the bullets through a die with a punch. Worked great. A bit slow, but results just as good as I get today with more elaborate tooling.

__________________
73 de n0ubx Rick - NRA BENEFACTOR LIFE MEMBER/VFW LIFE MEMBER - A government big enough to GIVE you
everything you want, is strong enough to TAKE everything you have. - Thomas Jefferson

Back to Top View Ham Gunner's Profile Search for other posts by Ham Gunner
 
Tom W.
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: December 08 2017
Location: Phenix City, Alabama
Posts: 120
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 24 2018 at 2:59pm | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

I use a lubrisizer, but I have tried most commercial lubes, tried making my own, and ended up buying CR from White label Lubes. It wasn't worth the time or aggravation cleaning the lead out of lubes that didn't perform.

Edited by Tom W. on March 25 2018 at 9:54am


__________________
Tom
Back to Top View Tom W.'s Profile Search for other posts by Tom W.
 
Rex
Senior Member




Joined: June 01 2004
Location: ;Paxton, Ne.
Posts: 3559
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 24 2018 at 4:12pm | IP Logged Quote Rex

Tom W.
I take it you have been satisfied with White Label Carnauba Red at most handgun speeds?
Back to Top View Rex's Profile Search for other posts by Rex
 
Tom W.
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: December 08 2017
Location: Phenix City, Alabama
Posts: 120
Online Status: Offline
Posted: March 25 2018 at 10:12am | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

Yes. I use,(and used )it for all of my handguns. I haven't bought a jacketed bullet in probably 20 years unless I was forced to by local regulations. I use it in 9mm, 38/357, .44 mag, .45acp, ,454 Casull and .480 Ruger. I'll finger lube cast bullets for my 30/30 and .30-06, altho most of the cast I shoot from the 30-06 are fire forming loads because it's really a 30-06 A.I.
I called up and spoke to the owner of WLL not too long ago when he announced the Carnauba Blue. He told me if I had a heater for my lubrisizer to just stay with the CR, as the CB is designed for use without a heater. It gets VERY hot here in Alabama, and while I have an A.C. in my shed, it gets mighty hot in there. The CR doesn't run out of the lube grooves and puddle, and I have yet to see any leading using it, even in my two aforementioned 30 cal rifles. Yes, I'm VERY satisfied with it, and my next order will be for more CR. Believe it or not it is cheaper to buy it than try to make it yourself. I know there are "Daniel Boone" types that will want to try, I did myself once. I even had beeswax from a wild honey bee hive that my boys found. It never surpassed the CR. And ain't near as messy or stinky as trying to make some yourself.

__________________
Tom
Back to Top View Tom W.'s Profile Search for other posts by Tom W.
 

Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc

Page of 2 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum

Powered by Web Wiz Forums version
Copyright ©2001-2008 Web Wiz Guide

This page was generated in 0.1250 seconds.