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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 03 2018 at 6:13am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Craig

I went back and read over the posts, I did not see a mention of barrel length.

Those are some pretty impressive velocities, the next test is to see how accurate they are. I crunched the numbers and the 2700 fps load is developing 1000 ft/# +

Might be interesting to shoot some of those into water filled milk jugs..

I would be a little suspicious of your pressures.. the Russian load I mentioned earlier (63 gr bullet at 1900 fps) was producing 41,000 psi.

Edited by John Van Gelder on May 03 2018 at 6:16am
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Desert Eagle41
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Posted: May 03 2018 at 7:47am | IP Logged Quote Desert Eagle41

Well John the little data I have from Hodgen website has there Universal load at 1593 fps and I was at 1598. This is close enough to prove to me the crony was working correctly.I am very concerned about the Power Pistol rounds as these speeds seem very high!! It was my guess as there is no data for power pistol but I have worked with the powder for years and worked up a load for 100g. Still a guess on my part!! Craig

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Desert Eagle41
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Posted: May 03 2018 at 7:52am | IP Logged Quote Desert Eagle41

John the barrel was around 4" or so as it is a S&W 5906,very heavy auto I like to use for testing as it's all steel. Craig

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 03 2018 at 7:59am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Impressive results..take care .. John
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Desert Eagle41
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Posted: May 07 2018 at 1:06pm | IP Logged Quote Desert Eagle41

Brief update as I found data for a 90g bullet for power pistol with a max of 7.0g in an old Lyman 49 book I have had since at leased the 80's. I still think for a 65g bullet I am safe at 7.5. Craig

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 07 2018 at 2:40pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

I think that it would be interesting to see what those will do to a gallon jug full of water.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 07 2018 at 2:49pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Craig

I found that 90 grain bullet load in my Lyman #48, it lists 1331 fps for 7 grains of Power Pistol, and 30K psi.

Now I am wondering about the 2000fps + with half a grain more..
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Desert Eagle41
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Posted: May 09 2018 at 10:47am | IP Logged Quote Desert Eagle41

John just remember that this bullet is only 65g compared to 90g. That's a 25g difference and make the bullet go faster I guess!! Craig

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 09 2018 at 4:55pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Craig

That still seems like a big jump. If the velocities you posted are in fact accurate, you are getting about the same performance out a 4" barrel that is normally associated with a .223.

What do your fired primers look like..?

Have you resized any of the brass from those loads and if so did the cases seem bulged at all?

Pretty interesting stuff. Bullets going that fast have some pretty substantial hydrostatic effect.

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 09 2018 at 5:37pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Craig

Since you are experimenting with 9mm stuff you might find this article interesting. This was back when Ruger was getting into the semi auto pistol business.

Cast Bullets in the 9mm
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Desert Eagle41
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Posted: May 10 2018 at 6:58am | IP Logged Quote Desert Eagle41

John I have reloaded those rounds and there was no over pressure signs at all. The resizing was effortless with the brass just sliding in to the die very easy. I checked the brass very closely and couldn't find any problems. Craig

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RT58
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Posted: May 10 2018 at 8:00am | IP Logged Quote RT58

I looked at the data from Inceptors site and Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester. H/I/W lists loads using 8 powders and their highest velocity was slightly over 1700 fps.

Primer flattening and case head expansion are not reliable indicators of pressure, as we learned from Speer #8.

The weight difference between the Inceptors and the 90 gr. bullet John mentioned may not mean anything as there is more to the variable than weight.

The velocities being that much higher than tested loads should raise a red flag...or least a yellow one.
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turbo1889
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Posted: May 13 2018 at 4:26pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

I just ran some math numbers to see what
is physically theoretically possible. As
in how fast you can theoretically make a
projectile of a certain weight go out of a
certain length barrel where pressure is
limited to a certain pressure.

Please note these calculations ASSume
no friction, and a constant pressure, both
ASSumptions are clearly not true in the
real world.


Pi = 3.14159-(etc)

BD = Bullet Diameter = 0.355

BW = Bullet Weight = 65 grains

P = Pressure = 30,000 psi



C = 12*32.174049*(Pi*(PD/2)^2)/(PW/7000)

x(t) = 1/2*C*P*t^2

v(t) = C*P*t/12



x(0.0002546) = 4.001531993 inches

v(0.0002546) = 2,619.48939 ft/sec


Or in other words even if you maintained a
constant 30,000 psi the full length of a 4
inch long barrel and ignoring any bore
friction you could just barely obtain the
velocity levels your getting readings for.

ASSuming it's not instrumentation error
the only way to get those kinds of
velocities is by pushing some pretty hot
pressure levels. Normally with the
partial exception of some compressed air
type guns the pressure is not constant but
rather a variable curve from breach to
muzzle and the peak pressure on that curve
will be well more then a constant pressure
calculation for the same muzzle velocity
from the same barrel length for the same
bullet. When the pressure levels are high
enough the bore friction for a solid
projectile makes only a small difference
in the calculations but a pressure curve
vs. constant pressure makes a big
difference.

For comparison the fastest 9mm load I
could quickly find in my load data
collection was a 90gr. bullet with a book
muzzle velocity of just barely under
1,600-fps with a book peak pressure of
33,600-psi test barrel length not
specified.

If I do the same set of theoretical math
calculations for that load if it held true
to book out of a 4" barrel it could be
accomplished with a constant pressure
level of just over 15,000-psi.

So that is the kind of differential
between the peak of a pressure curve vs.
constant pressure simple calculations.

So, if the simple calculations are coming
up with needing a full 30,000-psi on a
constant pressure then how much above that
is the peak pressure of a variable
pressure curve going to have to be pushed
to get the same muzzle velocity out of the
same barrel length?

I don't know the answer but I don't like
the direction the numbers are pointing!

Edited by turbo1889 on May 14 2018 at 2:31am


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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 14 2018 at 5:57am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Pete

It appears that you did all of that to say, perhaps Craigs loads are in either the +P or +P+ range.

Probably a better indicator than swelled cases or primers extruded into the firing pin channel, is how far the empty brass goes when ejected from a semi auto.

As I mentioned earlier the Russian military has an armor piercing load for the 9mm that they rate at 1900 fps with an operating pressure of 41,000.

There are a lot of differences in the new powders, and for listing of the same velocity and bullet weights pressures vary widely.

I think the real key here is the coefficient of friction for those polymer matrix bullets. I am sure some one has figured that out.

Using your upper calculations with a constant 30K of pressure and resulting velocity of 2600 and change. It is feasible that Craig's loads are someplace within the SAMMI specifications for 9mm +P loadings. Well within a safety margin.

Underwood produces a number of loads in the +P/+P+ range, they get velocities of 1400+ using a 115 gr jacketed HP bullet. No idea of the pressures. But this is commercial ammunition.

I think that we are just guessing here.. The best answer if for Craig to send some of his loads off to one of the labs for testing.

   

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turbo1889
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Posted: May 14 2018 at 7:01am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Okay, I played with some more numbers and worked on
this a little more since my last post and tried to
work out a complex pressure curve guesstimate of this.

I do have some appropriate pressure curves I have
recorded in my files, and after searching around
awhile I found the pressure trace I had for the 9mm
with the highest internal ballistic efficiency (most
area under the curve for a pistol length barrel shot
time interval). I took that trace and chopped it down
to the first 0.7 milliseconds which is applicable to a
pistol length barrel and cleaned up some of the noise
to just get the general curve shave in time. Then I
put that in as a background to an spreadsheet graph as
a picture and adjusted the graph to match the pressure
trace curve underneath and then manually input a trace
that maximizes the potential.

I then approximated the results integrating the
results between data points every 0.01 milliseconds
using a limit function to cut off the results when you
ran out of barrel length.


Using a 4" barrel length and this quesstimation of
what is the most efficient internal ballistic curve I
have in my records I started imputing various bullet
weights and the theoretical muzzle velocity predicted
by the spreadsheet based off the maximum efficiency
pressure curve for a 9x19 that I have in my records I
obtained the following:

147gr. bullet:
----- Spreadsheet Max Possible = 1,167 ft/sec
----- Fastest Load In Load Book = 1,125 ft/sec

124gr. or 125gr. bullet:
----- Spreadsheet Max Possible = 1,307 ft/sec
----- Fastest Load In Load Book = 1,280 ft/sec

115gr. bullet:
----- Spreadsheet Max Possible = 1,366 ft/sec
----- Fastest Load In Load Book = 1,328 ft/sec

95gr. bullet:
----- Spreadsheet Max Possible = 1,541 ft/sec
----- Fastest Load In Load Book = 1,445 ft/sec

90gr. bullet:
----- Spreadsheet Max Possible = 1,562 ft/sec
----- Fastest Load In Load Book = 1,532 ft/sec


For all those test comparisons I specifically chose
bullet weights for which there where pages and pages
of loads available.

Then I ran a 65gr. bullet weight on my spreadsheet
guesstimater based off of an actual pressure curve
trace that was the most efficient curve I could find
in my records that was applicable to the cartridge in
question.

My results:






Granted this is all an effort in educated
guesstimation. But I strongly suspect that either the
Chrony was giving some erroneous readings for those
2,500+ fps muzzle velocity results, a new miracle load
has been developed that has just the right black magic
going on to produce a vastly more efficient pressure
curve then anything in my records, or the load is over
pressure.

I strongly suspect instrumentation error. The powder
charge specified is only very slightly higher then
what is completely safe for a substantially heavier
bullet so I think the load being over-pressure is the
least likely of those three. And of the remaining two
I consider erogenous Chrony readings to be the more
probable explenation.

Your Mileage May Vary !!!

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Desert Eagle41
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Posted: May 14 2018 at 8:23am | IP Logged Quote Desert Eagle41

Very interesting!! From your guess I still think I am ok. If your right on the crony being off or whatever I think I am still safe at 7.5 and I better be as I have loaded 100 of those. I will also say the crony showed numbers that were very close to numbers of good data for the Hodgen loads I got from there web site. The factory load was much higher than any known load in print. I will test on. Craig

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 14 2018 at 2:36pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Craig

This is one of the most interesting threads in some time, I am pretty well convinced that you are not in the "danger zone". But I am still suspicious of the chrony readings.

I hope you pursue this, I think the information is very useful.   

Turbo

Some pretty impressive ballistics calculations. Without doing the math, my initial thought was that the chronograph reading were off by a substantial margin.





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Ham Gunner
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Posted: May 14 2018 at 7:58pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

Chronograph battery voltage can certainly give erroneous readings as can having the sensors too close to the muzzle blast. I have had extra high velocity readings at times. Normally was resolved by replacing the battery. Sensors too close to the muzzle usually cause the readout to show "error", but erroneous high velocity readings could be a possibility.

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Desert Eagle41
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Posted: May 17 2018 at 8:30am | IP Logged Quote Desert Eagle41

I have sent to Alliant for information on my load. Let's see what happens next. Craig

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 17 2018 at 12:35pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Craig

Cool..! Stay in touch..j
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