Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  

Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc
Cast Bullets
 Handloads.Com Forum : Cast Bullets
Subject Topic: Ideal 454190 mould acquired Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3722
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 12 2018 at 6:22am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

With the recent success of the softer cast bullets from
Despardo Cowboy Bullets I figured an old style mould
might be nice. The old Ideal 454190, the quintessential
45 Colt bullet, was my number one choice. And I located a
fine single cavity that is now on its way here. Being
identical to the old mould my old uncle Leo used it has a
bit of nostalgia to it too.

As to proper, repeat, proper alloy to cast in this, and
other moulds for my pistols, I will simply bite the
bullet [pun intended] and buy certified alloy from
RotoMetal and thus eliminate any possible issues. The
success of the 20:1 mixture used by Despardo Bullets
makes the choices rather simple. 20:1 or 16:1 for a
"peppier" load. With the collection of old BP era moulds
and early smokeless era designs I have, they all share a
commonality among them. Large and often dual lube grooves
that hold a generous amount of bullet lubrication.

My Lee moulds are accurate. No doubt about that, but they
lack those big grooves in them. Yesterday, shooting the
big 250gr Despardo bullet from 7 1/2m I noticed bits of
lube on my paper plate target. That's telling me that the
large lube groove on it filled with soft lube is doing
it's job. Combined with the 20:1 alloy there was zero
leading. With the Ideal 454190 and 2 large grooves for
lube I think my worries are over as long as I don't go
stupid with WW and assorted crap alloy.

So I'm looking forward to my new old school bullet mould
to arrive next week. And in the meantime, I will be using
a hatchet and 4 lb Mall trying to cut up the last
remaining plate of the "good lead" that was found not
long ago while cleaning up an area around the shed. I
can't expect my neighbors to help since there's nothing
in it for them. They seem to only want to deal with me
when they want something from me. So, I'll be slowly
chopping this lead up and saving up my pennies to buy
some good certified alloy in the future. One thing for
sure, no more wheel weights and trying to save a buck or
two on alloy. I'm casting nothing but the good stuff!


Edited by Old Ranger on April 12 2018 at 6:26am


__________________
"I am not politically correct. I don't apologise for being American. I stand by my country and have no use for anyone who does not."

The Old Ranger
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
Rex
Senior Member




Joined: June 01 2004
Location: ;Paxton, Ne.
Posts: 3547
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 12 2018 at 6:37am | IP Logged Quote Rex

The good alloy does sound like it will be worth the expense.

And you are finally getting a few moulds.
Back to Top View Rex's Profile Search for other posts by Rex
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3722
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 12 2018 at 8:06am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Rex, it almost seems like you and me are the only ones
that suffer from barrel leading in our pistols!
Everyone else says "I shoot such & such bullets made from
lumps of lead found in a bucket in my grandparents barn.
And lube 'em with reconstituted elephant snot mixed with
axel grease from a '48 Buick's differential. I can shoot
them at Mach IV and I never have any leading at all." You
and me? Shucks, we can cast as carefully as we can. Size
and lube with utmost detail. Load them meticulously in
our chosen calibers and Poof! Our bores are lead plated!
I've come to the conclusion that we're either
cursed, or everybody else is lying like a congressman
giving testimony in a hearing on sexual allegations
against him!

As to getting a few moulds. Ha!
Yup, I got two shoeboxes packed with moulds and handles!
Funny thing is, a few years back I sent 4 really great
and old Ideal .454" moulds to my brother in Sioux Falls!
He's got classics now! What was I thinking? oh well,
he needed 'em.

Just got word from a USPS tracking thingie that my mould
is "Out for delivery"! Yeah! I better get busy
chopping up that big 'ole lead plate huh?

__________________
"I am not politically correct. I don't apologise for being American. I stand by my country and have no use for anyone who does not."

The Old Ranger
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3722
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 12 2018 at 1:01pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Update:

Mould is delightful. Clean. Good color. Cavity flawless!


Was casting in 30 min after unpacking it. Cast just
wonderful like I remembered from long ago. Bullets drop
easily and are extremely well formed. HUGE lube grooves!
Cast 50 and stopped for lunch. Here's the scoop on
stats...

Base diameter: .4565"
Mid band:      .4555"
Nose @ widest: .4545"
Weight as cast: 253.5gr with current alloy

They sized and lubed up really good on the old 450
machine. Lubrication from Corrections Officer's private
stock. (Gracias Ricardo!)

Loaded 10 with 6gr of Trail Boss in new Starline cases.
Will shoot in a couple days. Loading was done with the
310 tool as it has a 190 seating stem and the dies on the
bench don't. [Not Lymans ]
But the loaded rounds from the 310 are exquisite!
Will test in two days.

Bottom line, the Old Ranger broke into his happy dance!


And I thought old uncle Leo was looking over my shoulder
a couple of times. I think I even heard "Son, is that
smokeless powder you puttin' in there?"

Edited by Old Ranger on April 12 2018 at 1:06pm


__________________
"I am not politically correct. I don't apologise for being American. I stand by my country and have no use for anyone who does not."

The Old Ranger
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
Paul B.
Senior Member




Joined: March 12 2002
Posts: 2481
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 12 2018 at 3:06pm | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

You know Wade, sometimes I really think the proper size is what helps
prevent leading.

Case in point, The head instructor of my Hunter Ed class gave me a
bunch of reloading stuff and asked for a box of reloads for his .357
mag. in exchange. I warned him that I'd messed up and used the
wrong batch of alloy, that the bullets would be softer than they should
be (BHN 8) and he might experience leading. Later on he called and
said they were the most accurate bullets he'd ever shot in his gun, a
Ruger Blackhawk 6.5". Surprised hell out of me. I loaded up a box for
myself and took them to the range. Sure enough they were very
accurate and no leading. The were the Lyman #358156, an SWC with
gas check, 14.0 gr. of A2400, Winchester brass and WSP primer.
Bullets were sized at .359"
I usually get some traces of lead using my regular alloy bu tno sign at
all with this batch of bullet. Go figure. Guess sometimes we just luck
out.
Paul B.
Back to Top View Paul B.'s Profile Search for other posts by Paul B.
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3722
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 12 2018 at 10:35pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Well Paul, I've got high hopes for this bullet. It was
the first I ever cast and loaded long ago with my great
uncle's gear. He used plumbers lead and a few bits of tin
shavings tossed in the pot. Fluxed with beeswax now and
then casting the 454190 in a single cavity mould. Worked
pretty good back then. I'm going for a repeat of that
now.

Rain due tomorrow. Will likely cast and load some more.
Bullets cast earlier will be "cured" and ready for
testing. Guess we'll see the next day huh? Oughta do ok I
think. With old school BP designed .38s like the 360271,
358250, and 357446 all having solid flat bases and two
good sized lube grooves a piece, they don't lead up. Only
when garbage alloy gets in there does a problem arise. I
do believe softer is better.

__________________
"I am not politically correct. I don't apologise for being American. I stand by my country and have no use for anyone who does not."

The Old Ranger
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
John Van Gelder
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: November 09 2004
Location: NE Oregon
Posts: 1834
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 13 2018 at 6:39am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Wade

I have probably loaded more .45s than anything else over time and in either the auto or the revolver, if you do not drive them over 1000 fps, almost anything (alloy) works.

I have shot nearly pure lead as cast and tumble lubed with very good success and no leading.

As we have discussed in the past the main cause of leading is bullets that are too small. The big heavy .45 bullets obdurate, fill the bore and do that will a pretty wide range of alloys.

In revolvers the biggest cause of bore leading is undersized throats.

The .45 Colt will even forgive that if it is not too extreme. As long as the bullets are soft..!

The 454190 is pretty much the original .45 Colt bullet, I have found for practical hunting that the Lee 255 RNFP bullet has a much larger meplat and is as effective on game as a SWC.

Having said all of that a friend of mine killed his first Alaskan moose with a standard factory .44 spl load. The old 246 grn round nose bullet at something less than 700 fps.
Back to Top View John Van Gelder's Profile Search for other posts by John Van Gelder
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3722
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 13 2018 at 7:13am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

John, I couldn't agree with you more! And when it comes
to casting and loading for a 45, you are always the first
one I think of. Your work with both the 200 grain and 255
grain Lee bullets where the reason I purchased a mold in
each weight.

I suppose my reasoning for the old ideal bullet Is that
it was the one I first used long ago with my uncle. This
may be as much a Nostalgia thing as a practical thing.
But I freely admit that I like large multiple Lube
grooves in a pistol bullet and old black powder molds
provide that. The weather is about to go south on me here
in a few hours so I'm sneaking out to my pistol range as
we speak to go shoot my first ten rounds with my new old
mold. When I come back in I'll have a report on how well
or rotten I did.

__________________
"I am not politically correct. I don't apologise for being American. I stand by my country and have no use for anyone who does not."

The Old Ranger
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3722
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 13 2018 at 8:59am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

I have no idea what kind of revolting and Insidious
compound Has embedded itself into the lands and grooves
of my 45. But, whatever it is I can't get it out.
something obviously has found its way into my mystery
metal mix . It's the alloy I'm casting with, it's just
trash! I think I was better off with some copper wash
left over by the plated bullets. And of course I shot low
left. maybe this just ain't the Rangers day

__________________
"I am not politically correct. I don't apologise for being American. I stand by my country and have no use for anyone who does not."

The Old Ranger
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
John Van Gelder
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: November 09 2004
Location: NE Oregon
Posts: 1834
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 13 2018 at 9:01am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Wade

I am a big fan of the .45 Colt, I have more of those than any other hand gun caliber. That is mostly because when I lived in Alaska and used to frequent the same places as some really big bears, I wanted something a bit more than a .44 Magnum.

These days the standard .45 Colt load will do for anything I run into south of Canada.

I have a fair share of Ideal molds, at one time I had one of the very early tong tools that had a mold attached, you could cast your bullets and do your reloading with one tool. That one was for the .38 S&W.
Back to Top View John Van Gelder's Profile Search for other posts by John Van Gelder
 
John Van Gelder
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: November 09 2004
Location: NE Oregon
Posts: 1834
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 13 2018 at 9:06am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Wade

Bore brush wrapped with a piece of a copper scrubbing pad.

The stuff you are seeing in the bore, was that before or after you cleaned your glasses..? :)
Back to Top View John Van Gelder's Profile Search for other posts by John Van Gelder
 
John Van Gelder
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: November 09 2004
Location: NE Oregon
Posts: 1834
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 13 2018 at 9:09am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

There is leading and then their is leading, sometimes you get some wash in the barrel, that comes out on a dry patch.

Back to Top View John Van Gelder's Profile Search for other posts by John Van Gelder
 
John Van Gelder
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: November 09 2004
Location: NE Oregon
Posts: 1834
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 13 2018 at 9:16am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

everything you need to know about lead alloy..

A Few Comments on Cast Bullet Alloys

by Glen E. Fryxell

Cast bullet hardness, specifically the hardness of the various alloys used to make cast bullets, has raised a lot of questions and confusion lately. A very common misconception is that leading is caused by the bullet being too soft and the lead gets stripped off or abraded away from the bullet's bearing surface as it passes down the bore. This misguided belief leads many new bullet casters to turn to expensive alloys like linotype, and/or elaborate heat treating methods to harden their bullets, thinking that this is the only way to prevent leading.

There are very, very few revolver applications that require a BHN of over 20. In my experience, revolver leading can almost always be traced to some other factor (inadequate lubrication, improper sizing, barrel/frame constriction, etc.). Only very rarely is barrel leading caused by the bullet being too soft. In support of this claim, let me point out that many muzzle loaders prefer bullets cast from 30-to-1 alloy (which is quite soft, BHN of about 9) and these smokepole slugs are routinely driven to 1300-1400 fps. In addition, high-velocity .22 Long Rifle ammo uses an even softer bullet at over 1200 fps (and if a .22 leads, it's a gun problem, not an ammo problem). Elmer Keith's favorite cast bullet alloy was 16-to-1 lead/tin, which has a BHN of only 11. This is the alloy that gave a roaring birth to the .44 Magnum using plain-based cast bullets loaded to 1400+ fps. Properly loaded and lubed, Elmer's alloy will leave a magnum revolver barrel shiny and clean after a long day shooting.

Plainly stated, hardcast bullets with a BHN well over 20 are simply not necessary for the vast majority of handgun applications. A novice bullet caster can have much of his or her new-found enthusiasm quenched by the clamor, confusion and paranoia surrounding bullet hardness. This is a shame because understanding alloy suitability is not that complicated and bullet casting really is a lot of fun and allows a shooter (novice and master alike) to get so much more out of their hobby.

Just about every conceivable alloy has been used at one time or another to make bullets. The cast bullet alloys most commonly encountered today are linotype (12% antimony, 4% tin, BHN of 22), Lyman #2 alloy (5% antimony, 5% tin, BHN of 15), and wheelweights (the composition varies somewhat, but usually runs 3-4% antimony and about 0.5% tin and a BHN of 10-12). These hardness values are for air-cooled bullets; heat treating or water quenching these alloys will raise these values notably. For an excellent, detailed treatment of the metallurgy of lead-tin-antimony alloys and how their properties can be best exploited by bullet casters, the reader is wholeheartedly referred to the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, "Cast Bullets" by the NRA and "The Art of Bullet Casting" by Wolfe Press. My intent here is to provide an easily digested overview so that new casters will have a clean and simple introduction to the subject and start casting good bullets as quickly as possible.

Historically, tin was used to harden bullet alloys because it was widely available, it was easily mixed with molten lead, and it improved the "castability" of the alloy considerably (tin lowers the surface tension of the molten alloy and allows it to fill out the mould more completely). However, in recent years tin has gotten to be rather expensive. In addition, it's really not all that effective at hardening lead alloys. Antimony hardens lead alloys much more effectively than does tin, and is cheaper to boot, so antimony is the primary hardening component used in lead alloys today. In addition, antimony allows the alloy to be hardened via heat treatment, something the chemistry of tin doesn't allow (and arsenic is even better for heat treating than is antimony).   Antimony has limited solubility in molten lead, but tin enhances its solubility through the formation of an intermetallic SnSb compound, which is more soluble.

Thus each component contributes something different to the whole: tin provides castability (2% is really all that's needed) and "mixability", antimony provides hardness and the ability to harden through heat treatment, and a small amount (0.05-0.5%) of arsenic (which in and of itself doesn't harden the alloy appreciably) significantly enhances the heat treatability of the mix.

There's been a lot of interest in recent years about making cast bullets very hard (BHN of 20 to 35), either through the use of very high antimony content (e.g. 12%), water quenching or heat treating. The only time that such hardness is needed by a revolver shooter is when dealing with very high pressure, high velocity loads (e.g. .454 Casull). If the hardness isn't required, why use linotype at $1 a pound for sixgun fodder when wheelweights are are free, or at most about 15 cents a pound? Remember, the mighty .44 Magnum was born with plain-based cast bullets with a BHN of 11......and Elmer was pleased.

The metallurgical details of what happens to lead-tin-antimony alloys during heat treatment are beyond the scope of this article, but Dennis Marshall has an excellent treatise on this subject in "Cast Bullets" by the NRA. The bottom line is that lead alloys that contain antimony can be hardened considerably (10 or more BHNs) by heating them to about 400 degrees F for an hour or two, and then water quenching. Small amounts of arsenic enhance this tendency considerably. Somewhat similar results can be obtained by casting fast and hot and quenching the hot bullets in water (keep the water away from the lead pot and use some sort of splash control!).

It is important to recognize that lead-tin-antimony alloys work soften (as opposed to brass and steel alloys that work harden), so sizing the bullets will soften those areas of the bullet that get worked. If I'm going to shoot heat-treated bullets, then I size them first (but apply no lube), heat treat, then lube in the same sizing die (this time-consuming process is why I shoot so very few heat-treated bullets). If I'm shooting water-quenched bullets, I choose a sizer die that is just large enough that very little sizing occurs and just run the bullets through one time to get lubed (MUCH quicker and easier).

Tin and lead are infinitely soluble in one another and their binary alloys form true solid solutions. This is how chem-geeks and metallurgists say that the tin is evenly mixed throughout and does not separate. Antimony is much less soluble in lead, and lead-antimony alloys generally have some degree of phase segregation (i.e. antimony crystals surrounded by lead alloy). Lead-tin alloys tend to be much more malleable than do lead-antimony alloys, so straight lead-tin alloys are better suited for cast bullets that are intended to expand readily (i.e. hollow points), especially at lower velocities. They mushroom more smoothly and are less prone to fragment. At higher velocities, a small amount of antimony is acceptable, but it should be limited to no more than 3% to minimize brittleness and fragmentation. The harder (and more brittle) antimony alloys are better suited for bullets that are not meant to expand.

Why not just cast all revolver bullets out of linotype (BHN = 22)? The short answer is because barrels aren't perfect. The long answer is because cast bullet obturation is a good thing. Obturation is the plastic deformation of the bullet alloy as a result of the pressure applied to the base by the burning powder. By making the bullet soft enough that it can deform slightly upon firing, it does a better job of sealing the gases off behind it and minimizing blow-by and the leading that results from it.

Usually when obturation is brought up, the topic of conversation is groove diameter. I'd like to suggest that perhaps this is inappropriate. Most barrels made today are cut with a pretty consistent groove diameter; it may be "tight" or it may be "loose" but it will usually be reasonably consistent throughout its length, generally within +/- .0005" (this didn't used to be true). However, the width of the grooves/lands may well vary by several thousandths. The reason for this is during the repetitive operation of cutting the grooves, the placement of the cutter may not be exactly reproducible, or there may be chatter, or localized hard or soft spots so the cutter drags or skips. Yes, modern barrel-makers are very, very good; but minor variations in the cutting operation, or minor defects within the barrel steel can make the grooves/lands vary ever-so-slightly in width. The forward edge of the land is of little consequence because the bullet's forward momentum is continuously forcing it into this edge. Where the variation of groove/land width raises its hoary head is on the trailing edge.

Once the bullet is engraved, if the land/groove width varies, then the seal is broken on the trailing edge. How many times have you seen barrel leading "follow the rifling"? That is a sure sign that the bullet was too hard for the pressures generated by the load. This is why bullets of moderate hardness are desirable, by obturating they can seal this trailing edge. At extremely low pressures (e.g. 600-700 fps) obturation isn't quite as important since at these low pressures blow-by isn't as much of a problem and the lube serves as a floating fluid gasket and seals the gases (thereby limiting blow-by). Unfortunately, at the higher pressures that most sixgunners operate at, the lube gets blown out the muzzle if it doesn't have obturation playing a supporting role.

So, for routine sixgunning applications what do we want from our cast bullet alloy? In the 800-1000 fps range we should probably keep the alloy at a BHN of 12 or below. From 1000-1400 fps, 12 to 16 is a very useful range of hardness. For velocities of 1400 to 1700 fps, this window slides up to 14 to 20. Above 1700, linotype at a BHN of 22 is an excellent choice.

What does this mean in terms of alloys? For general all-round revolver shooting, I find it hard to beat 10 lbs of wheelweight alloy with a couple ounces of added tin. This comes out to roughly 4% antimony, 2% tin (similar to the old electrotype alloy). This makes excellent bullet metal, it casts well and is hard enough for almost all handgun applications (BHN of about 12). If harder bullets are called for, then this alloy can be water quenched from the mould (or heat treated), which raises the hardness considerably, and I commonly do this for my .44 Mag cast bullets. Its not really necessary, but the water quenched bullets are a little bit more accurate and water quenching is so easy to do, so why not? I tend to think of this as approach as "tight-wad's linotype". I haven't actually measured the hardness of this alloy, but I would guess that it's running around a BHN of 18 or so. It's hard enough, put it that way....

That pretty much covers the non-expanding cast bullets. When I'm casting hollow-point bullets intended for full-house magnum loads (1200-1400 fps), then I soften WW alloy a little bit by using 8 lbs WW with 2 lbs pure lead and a couple ounces of tin. By diluting the antimony with a little extra lead, this alloy comes out a little softer (about 3% antimony, 2% tin) and has a BHN of about 11, and similar to the alloy used by Elmer Keith for his cast HPs (less brittle, more malleable, and very shootable). An alternate for this alloy is to mix Lyman #2 alloy with an equal part of pure lead.

For lower velocity HP loads (below 1000 fps), I have grown fond of using 25-to-1 alloy (6 lbs pure lead with lb of 50/50 solder). This alloy is soft enough (BHN of about 9) to expand readily at impact velocities down to about 850 fps (depending on the HP design) and is very useful for things like .38 Special and .44 Special loads. It casts beautifully!

I only resort to using linotype for cast bullets that will be shot above 1700 fps. Expensive high antimony or high tin alloys are really not needed for high-quality revolver loads. Medium hardness alloys will do just about everything you need for sixgun shooting. If you decide that you want them to be a somewhat harder, then just water quench the bullets as they drop from the mould. Most leading is caused by some form of dimensional mismatch or by inadequate lubrication, not by the bullet being too soft (don't blame the alloy for something it didn't cause). As the old adage goes, "Moderation in all things...."

Back to Top View John Van Gelder's Profile Search for other posts by John Van Gelder
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3722
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 13 2018 at 9:23am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Chore Boy wrapped brush was useless! Barns CR-10 bore
cleaner [nearly nuclear stuff] didn't phase it. This is a
grey-green metallic substance that refuses to budge!
I have the bore soaking with Ballistol in hopes it will
creep up under the stuff and partially dissolve it.
Whatever it is, it came off the last bullets I cast.
Either the 454 190 or 255 grain Lee bullet that I shot
after the Lyman bullets. either way I'm screwed. I think
I'm just going to walk away from it and forget it. I have
never in my life seen this kind of trash in my Barrel.
I'm quite sure that I picked this up in the last bit of
"alloy" I got. I sometimes wonder why I even bother.


__________________
"I am not politically correct. I don't apologise for being American. I stand by my country and have no use for anyone who does not."

The Old Ranger
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3722
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 13 2018 at 1:44pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Ended up going to Montana Extreme bore paste with brush
with patch wrap. Scrubbed so hard the entire barrel
became hot to hold! Removed the rough stuff, but the odd
coloration remained in the steel of the bore. Damnest
thing I've ever seen. Has a brownish green "stain"
(?) in parts of the muzzle area of the bore. Just plain
weird.

I'm taking a break from loading for a while. And trashing
all the "alloy" I got. Throwing it all out in the woods!


__________________
"I am not politically correct. I don't apologise for being American. I stand by my country and have no use for anyone who does not."

The Old Ranger
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 
John Van Gelder
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: November 09 2004
Location: NE Oregon
Posts: 1834
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 13 2018 at 3:24pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Wade

Just a guess, it sounds like you may have gotten some babbitt mixed in with your alloy. Babbitt can be a number of alloys, a common one is tin, copper and antimony.

Back to Top View John Van Gelder's Profile Search for other posts by John Van Gelder
 
doghawg
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: February 12 2005
Location: Wisc.
Posts: 1797
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 13 2018 at 9:32pm | IP Logged Quote doghawg

Wade

Somewhere in my travels I encountered some "Magnolia anti-friction metal" which I believe is babbit. I toyed with the idea of mixing some of that with wheel weights but chickened out because of the copper content.

I'd guess John has nailed it and based on your experience I'm thinking it will stay out of my alloy.

Good luck cleaning your bore but I'm confident the old Ranger ain't whipped yet!

Randy

__________________
Unless you're the lead sled dog the scenery never changes.
Back to Top View doghawg's Profile Search for other posts by doghawg
 
turbo1889
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: August 08 2006
Location: Montana, U.S.A.
Posts: 1616
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 14 2018 at 4:01am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

I had some aluminum alloy bullets do
something similar to one of my rifled
barrel shotguns a few years back (trying
out slugs turned from aluminum alloy bar
stock for high velocity highly aerodynamic
spitzer shaped slugs).

Basically I found out the hard way that
some aluminum alloys are very "sticky" and
gall badly when rubbing against steel.

Aluminum don't usually mix with lead but
it will mix with zinc and/or copper which
both will mix a little with lead so if
aluminum were first mixed with zinc and/or
copper and then added to lead would it mix
then? I don't know. Just a thought though
especially with the color you specified a
dark green-ish gold-ish is how the
aluminum galling deposits affected my bore
on those not so successful tests.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
Back to Top View turbo1889's Profile Search for other posts by turbo1889
 
turbo1889
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: August 08 2006
Location: Montana, U.S.A.
Posts: 1616
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 14 2018 at 4:18am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

As to copper in lead, I actually do that
deliberately for some very high end rifle
loads, you need very pure copper (electric
wire scrap salvaged from construction
sights stripped of any insulation is what
I use) and you need to forcably submerge
it in the lead so it doesn't float on the
top and just ozidize in contact with the
air under heat. The copper very slowly
leaches into the lead like ice cubes
slowly melting. Doesn't take much in the
mix along with tin antimony and arsenic to
make good high end rifle alloy. Doesn't
make the lead so much harder as make it
less brittle while still being just as
hard and also gives the lead some spring
back which normally lead don't have any
spring back at all.

Unless you have like more then 3% copper
in the alloy it shouldn't cause a problem,
never has for me, and that is about as
much copper as I have ever been able to
get into the lead. Now with a babbit
alloy added to lead maybe you could get
more copper into the lead as apposed to
adding pure copper to the lead pot,
forcibly submerging it under a weighted
fine steel screen and waiting for the
copper to slowly leach into the lead
like ice cubes slowly melting (which is
the only way you get copper into lead
deliberately unless you way overheat your
lead so that it actually glows orange
which will totally mess up your lead
alloy, don't ask me how I know about
that).

Edited by turbo1889 on April 14 2018 at 4:24am


__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
Back to Top View turbo1889's Profile Search for other posts by turbo1889
 
Old Ranger
Senior Member


Avatar

Joined: April 11 2010
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3722
Online Status: Offline
Posted: April 14 2018 at 6:45am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Gentlemen, you are obviously quite correct. Something has
entered my lead pot and caused havoc in my barrel.
Yesterday I was fit to be tied with this "gunk" in my
cool looking '71 Colt Open Top 45. But massive
thunderstorms rolled through my area last night and early
this morning giving me a most restful and rejuvenating
sleep. Thus I awoke to a clear and fresh morning both
outside and within. In essence I have regrouped and am
ready for battle. The enemy is contaminated lead.

Yes indeed, the off colored nature of the contaminant and
it's resistance to my removal efforts were foreign and
unknown, it completely threw me off my game. But this
morning I am back to my rational and analytical self. I
have removed the remaining cast rounds of the foul alloy
and will soon have the pot cleared of it as well.
In the meantime I have those nice 20:1 cast bullets from
Despardo Cowboy Bullets that are just perfect. I'll just
shoot those until I manage to chop off some lead from the
last remaining xray plate I found from long ago.

The "Nasty Velocity Atrocity" (NVA) may have launched a
frontal assault upon my A.O. with nasty disgusting gunk,
but his flank has been turned and he is on the run! Hoo-
Ah!

And thus ends this morning's lesson on foul lead,
disgusting barrel deposits, the new "NVA", and an old
coot with an attitude about yucky lead.
Tune in next week when The Old Ranger takes on Dwayne
Johnson in thumb wrestling! Fur will fly folks!


Thanks for the input and analysis guys. That added some
serious insight as to what I was up against.

__________________
"I am not politically correct. I don't apologise for being American. I stand by my country and have no use for anyone who does not."

The Old Ranger
Back to Top View Old Ranger's Profile Search for other posts by Old Ranger
 

Home | Load data | Articles | Ballistic Calc | Energy Calc

Page of 3 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum

Powered by Web Wiz Forums version
Copyright ©2001-2008 Web Wiz Guide

This page was generated in 0.1836 seconds.