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richhodg66
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Posted: April 22 2018 at 3:32pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

I impulse bought a sporterized '93 Mauser a few months back from a local pawn shop that usually doesn't have much in the way of guns. Got it cheap and whoever did it did a respectable job. More importantly, dimensionally it fits me very well and isn't especially heavy, not a featherweight, but a good weight for a hunting rifle. Like most of my guns, it was gonna shoot cast or nothing, and it did alright from the get -go. Been casually trying to come up with a practice load and a hunting load. I'm most of the way to the hunting load, but it looks like this will be my practice load. This was on my 100 yard range from a bench, but considering I'm pretty early into my relationship with this rifle and that I'm not as good a shot as I used to be, I'll take it.




Edited by richhodg66 on April 22 2018 at 3:38pm


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doghawg
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Posted: April 22 2018 at 4:35pm | IP Logged Quote doghawg

It looks like you found a dance partner with that gun and load. Outstanding! I've used Unique and Blue Dot for cast loads in rifles but never Green Dot. What would you guesstimate for velocity with that load?

Randy

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richhodg66
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Posted: April 22 2018 at 4:40pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

Interpolating between min and max loads with a similar bullet in an old Lyman manual, I'd guess it's pretty close to 1450.

I was gifted a hollow point mold of the old, discontinued Ideal 287308 which weighs about 165 grains dressed out with a gas check. That one shot adequately for deer hunting, but I need to work with it more. It will be cast of a softer and more malleable alloy and pushed to 1800 FPS or so before I use cast for hunting in this.

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Rex
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Posted: April 22 2018 at 5:28pm | IP Logged Quote Rex

Rich, that looks like deer in the freezer.
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richhodg66
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Posted: April 22 2018 at 5:52pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

I'd say you're right based on my hunting tactics. The last three bucks I killed were with a crossbow, I think this one should be a no brainer.

Bullet selection, especially cast, isn't nearly as good for 7mms as for .30 calibers. That, combined with the less bullet mass means I need to be more careful than I already am deer hunting with cast.

This is a good group, but I shot one more group with the same load only difference it was the first group so from a clean barrel and it was almost this small. Two things I recently started doing with the 7mm, I got a .287 sizer luber die rather than the .285 one I was using and I picked up a Lyman "M" die for expanding the neck. I think those two things made a lot of difference.

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USA Joe
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Posted: April 23 2018 at 11:44am | IP Logged Quote USA Joe

Sure looks like a winner.!       Joe

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Paul B.
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Posted: April 23 2018 at 11:44am | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

This thread is worthless without a picture of the rifle.

Nice group though. You can probably tighten it up a bit with some
tinkering. I feed three 7x57s but haven't shot cast in any of them. I do
like the cartridge though.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: April 30 2018 at 6:02am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Rich

The 7x57 is quite a remarkable cartridge, if memory serves it is one of the first smokeless powder cartridges. A real marvel back in the day, producing velocities of 2000 fps+.

I read an old story from one of the hunting magazines back in the 50s about an African farmer who used to shoot elephants with the 7x57.

I may be wrong on this but I also believe that when our lads were charging up San Juan hill, they were on the receiving end of 7x57s from Spanish Mausers.

A lot of history in that cartridge.
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Paul B.
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Posted: April 30 2018 at 2:51pm | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

"I read an old story from one of the hunting magazines back in the 50s
about an African farmer who used to shoot elephants with the 7x57."

I think it might have been even earlier than that. There was an article in
IIRC the 1948 or 1949 issue of the American Rifleman on one William
David Maitiland (Karamojo) Bell who as an ivory hunter killed around
1,100 elephants. It was something like 800 with the 7x57 and the rest
with the 6.5 Mannichler, .303 British and a 450/400 double rifle.
In the 7x57 he used German military issure 173 gr. full metal jacket
ammo. He did not like the British made Kynoch ammo as he had many
misfires with them. I always remember the comment he made on his
7x57, "That never a soft nosed bullet ever polluted that perfect barrel."
He dropped the use of the 6.5 mannlicher because the long 160 gr.
bullets would bend on impact and penetrate poorly.
I have his book Karamojo Safari. IIRC, the AR article was a chapter
from that book.
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richhodg66
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Posted: April 30 2018 at 3:58pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

Here you go;

https://www.chuckhawks.com/bell_elephants.htm

I've heard about how badly out matched our Soldiers were in the Spanish American War too. I've always had a hard time believing that the '93 Mauser was that much superior to the Krag as a battle rifle. Important to remember also, that most American troops were still packing Trap Doors during that war.

Agreed on the 7x57, it's a sweetheart.

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richhodg66
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Posted: April 30 2018 at 4:05pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

The rifle in question.



Edited by richhodg66 on April 30 2018 at 4:06pm


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richhodg66
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Posted: April 30 2018 at 4:07pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

Wow, still trying to figure Imgur out, didn't realize it would post that big.

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turbo1889
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Posted: April 30 2018 at 4:54pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

I can confirm that in the Spanish-American
War the other side was using 7x57 bolt
action Mausers at least in Cuba. I have a
capture gun handed down through the family
and it still shoots good, would really not
want to be on the wrong end of it.

The British also found out what it was
like to be on the wrong end of that
cartridge in Bor Wars as did the German
and Turks units who faced the Serbs during
the first year of WWI who used the 7x57
cartridge as their military standard
cartridge before and during the first
portion of the war until their nation was
conquered and the remnants of their army
that hat retreated into exile were re-
armed by the allies with whatever they had
to spare.

Primary complaint from those who have been
on the wrong end of the 7x57 is that they
faced an enemy with superior accuracy over
extended range and they enemy was able to
place aimed fire on them before they could
get close enough to do the same and it was
a case of trying to put volley-fire on an
often dug in enemy that was returning
precision aimed fire. Not a fun situation
to be in, these complaints we're greatest
among the British troops in the Bor
Wars and their units would often take 3-
to-1 casualties when facing Bors equipped
with 7x57 rifles. Obviously general
marksmanship among combatants plays into
this as well and British regulars were not
especially known for excellent
marksmanship and we're facing rugged
individuals who had lived on the frontier
with arguably superior overall
marksmanship regardless of what the rifles
themselves we're capable of.

Edited by turbo1889 on April 30 2018 at 4:56pm


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richhodg66
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Posted: April 30 2018 at 5:13pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

Training, discipline and control of fires makes a difference as does team work. Compare Rourke's drift with the Little Big Horn. Regular troops facing numerically superior aboriginal forces with rifles of similar capabilities, drastically different outcome.

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turbo1889
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Posted: May 01 2018 at 1:35am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

I agree, but the comparison you use has
more factors at play.

The Zulus had the attitude that firearms
were a cowards weapon and were used by
them haphazardly because the British used
firearms against them so although still
distasteful it was acceptable to use a
cowards weapon against a coward, their
marksmanship was reportable attrocious and
few were armed with firearms.

The native Americans that fought at the
Little Big Horn on the other hand embraced
firearms and tried to get their hands on
as many as possible with a strong
preference for the Henry rifle which is
considered by many to be the world's first
"assault rifle" firing a lower powered
cartridge (44 Henry rimfire) but offering
sustained fire as fast as you could work
it's lever action and refill it's tube
magazine where as Custer's troops were
armed with single shot trap doors in 45-70
and it's not like the native Americans had
only a few Henry rifles at that battle,
modern forensic examination of fired 44
Henry casings found on the battle field
indicate well over 200 Henry rifles were
deployed in that battle with thousands of
rounds fired from them.

And that isn't even taking into
consideration that the U.S. Army cheaper
out on the ammo for the 45-70 trap doors
getting a better price for cartridges that
used a copper casing rather then a brass
casing which worked fine for the first few
shots but once the guns got hot the copper
cases would stick in the chamber unlike
quality brass cases and had to be pried
out with s knife. No such equivalent
problems are known to have taken place in
the British-Zulu engagement with the
British guns.

I totally agree that leadership, training,
discipline all make a huge difference.
But to put it in modern context what would
you think if you came upon what had
obviously been the scene of a battle out
in the open with a few dozen dead guys
holding bolt action 30-06 hunting rifles
and a whole bunch of AR-15 brass scattered
all over and sign showing they lost a
fight with a far superior number of foes
who brought a greater number of AR-15s to
bear against them in rapid fire. Yah,
leadership, training, discipline, tactics,
etc . . . could have helped them but this
was going to be a hard fight for them
regardless, doesn't mean they couldn't
have done better but boy this don't look
good.

On the other hand you come across a field
out in the open with hundreds of dead guys
with almost entirely just handguns and
only a very few rifles (most of the Zulu
were equipped with spears, short range
weapon, modern analogy handgun) and in the
center of this field is a small improvised
fortified structure with a few dozen worn
out guys with only a few dead and injured
who are armed with bolt action hunting
rifles which unlike the previous
battlefield you saw these guys bolt action
hunting rifles aren't jambed up with
cheapo faulty ammo.

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 01 2018 at 6:00am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

I always imagined that the perfect "gentleman's" rifle was the mod 1903 full stocked Mannlicher Schoenauer in the carbine length, with the "butter knife" bolt handle, double set triggers, in 7x57.
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Paul B.
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Posted: May 01 2018 at 2:06pm | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

John Van Gelder wrote:
I always imagined that the perfect
"gentleman's" rifle was the mod 1903 full stocked Mannlicher
Schoenauer in the carbine length, with the "butter knife" bolt handle,
double set triggers, in 7x57.


I agree that rifle is one very sweet piece of work. However the 1903
M/S was chambered only in the 6.5x54MM. The 1908 was in either
8x58 MM or 9x56 MM I forget which. I used to have an old Stoeger
catalog I could refer to but it's been long gone. I did have a 1903 M/S
that was gifted to me by the wife of a late gunsmith friend but some
low life piece of crap broke into my truck in Elko Nevada back in 1975
and stole my rifle. I finally quit looking for a replacement and sold the
died about a year ago.
Paul B.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 01 2018 at 2:33pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

I may have had the model # wrong, but I laid hands on a MS carbine, with the full length stock, and all of the other "accessories" I liked, in 7x57, it was in a gun shop in upstate New York back about 1960. It had the polygonal twist on the outside of the barrel, just up from the action some 3-4" as I recall. The guy the owned the shop was a really good gun smith and my have re barreled the gun for a customer.

Since it has been so much fun talking about one the first smokeless powder cartridges, perhaps we need to mention another.. The .30-30.

I do not recall if the German army ever used the 7x57, I know that the issue rifle during WW11 was an 8mm, and probably the 8x58.

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 01 2018 at 2:50pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

The Zulus were hard men. They had a definite military structure, they trained often, and had remarkable discipline. Out for a day hike they would run 75 miles, turn around and run back.

There were two battles of note, the one at Rourks Drift and the one at Iswanda, (the spelling is probably off there). The battle at Iswand, was a total defeat for the British. The commander should have been court marshaled, because he went against specific directives from the queen, admonishing him not to get into a conflict with the native peoples, which he completely ignored.

The battle a Rourks Drift, went much better for the English, I think that they had a more defensible position.

As far as the Little Big Horn, Custer was a victim of hubris. The native people had better fire arms, there were more of them and they were defending their way of life.

A rule of warfare, the side that can put the most bits of metal into the air wins.

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richhodg66
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Posted: May 01 2018 at 4:37pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

John Van Gelder wrote:
I may have had the model # wrong, but I laid hands on a MS carbine, with the full length stock, and all of the other "accessories" I liked, in 7x57, it was in a gun shop in upstate New York back about 1960. It had the polygonal twist on the outside of the barrel, just up from the action some 3-4" as I recall. The guy the owned the shop was a really good gun smith and my have re barreled the gun for a customer.

Since it has been so much fun talking about one the first smokeless powder cartridges, perhaps we need to mention another.. The .30-30.

I do not recall if the German army ever used the 7x57, I know that the issue rifle during WW11 was an 8mm, and probably the 8x58.



There's a neat sporter built on a Dutch Manliccher in a shop not far from here. Never gonna sell unless it's to a masochist like me who likes challenges like making his own ammo. That 6.5x53R is pretty much a rimmed 6.5x54 MS. I'm probably gonna head over there and make a lowball offer on it soon. I think I have enough different dies to make brass from .303 British, so there I am.

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