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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 04 2018 at 6:00am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Not sure if this goes here or not.. I am an air gun fan, with the shortage of .22 ammunition a couple of years back, and the now considerable increase in cost of .22 ammo, air guns are a pretty attractive substitute, and for most of the stuff folks use .22s for the air gun works as well and is considerably cheaper to shoot.

The PCP guns are very accurate, and easy to shoot compared with the spring guns which have been a lot cheaper, until recently. A good spring gun went for around $200.00 and a good PCP gun was closer to $500.00, with the upper end guns in the 1-2000 range.

Just in the last few months Beeman started marketing their QB Chief, a PCP gun that sells for under $200.00, and can be had for around $160.00 from Amazon.

What is surprising is that one reviewer was getting under 2" groups at 100 yards with the .22 cal. gun. Velocities were right around 850 fps with 14.3 gr., pellets, for 25 shots, after that velocity start to fall off.

That is exceptional accuracy for an economically priced gun.
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richhodg66
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Posted: May 05 2018 at 5:00am | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

When the .22 LR ammo shortage was at its height, I started looking for ways around it. As a kid, I'd always wanted a Sheridan Blue or Silver Streak and ended up getting one. Then ended up getting another one. I've since gotten a Benjamin that is a springer, but is a .25 and quite powerful. I need to work with the Benjamin, the Sheridans I successfully used on squirrels a few times.

I don't know much about PCP air rifles, but I coach a kid's air rifle team as part of my job. We used Daisy/Avanti 887s which use compressed CO2, you fill a cylinder off a big tank and then screw it into the rifle. They're not top of the line rifles, but plenty accurate enough that it's gonna take a kid who is a pretty good shooter to really need much more. At some point before my time, the standard JROTC air rifles were single pump pneumatics Daisy made, not sure how they ever got any shooting done having to break position every time you loaded it, especially shooting prone with a sling. We are in the process of switching to the Crossman Challengers which promise to be better rifles for several reasons and they fill directly from a tank of compressed air.

When I was about 17, my folks moved us into a house that had about a half acre back yard with about three dozen mature pecan trees and butted up to a city ball park that wasn't occupied most of the time and neighbors on the other sides who didn't care, so Dad bought me an RWS springer that I did some of the best squirrel hunting of my life with right there in the back yard.

I like air rifles and should shoot mine more. I'll have to look into some of the modern PCP guns.

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turbo1889
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Posted: May 05 2018 at 5:31am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

As far as PCP guns go if and when I get
into that I plan on going all in for one
of the big bore 45-cal 4,500-psi guns that
uses cast lead 45-70 as pellets and can
push a 405-gr. pill out there at 950-fps
or so muzzle velocity.

Otherwise I've got a modified Cummins
brand Springer. Yes same company that
makes diesel engines for the big rigs, an
old gun, from way back when there were
rifles and shotguns sold with the Sears
and Ace Hardware name brand on them as
well. It's heavily modified with a beafed
up cocking arm, a automotive type gas
strut replacing the original spring and a
smoothed out double stage trigger with a
smooth pull a crisp surprise break part
way through the pull (original trigger was
a stiff hard single stage). Yah it's only
a 177-cal but boy can it shoot and it
packs a punch pushing the heavy weight
pellets out in the low 900s high 800s and
with the normal weight pellets it will go
supersonic but accuracy suffers because
they drop back through the trans-sonic
band on their way to the target.

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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 05 2018 at 6:30am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Air guns have come a long way, in the last 50 years. I had a Crosman .22 CO2 powered rifle that I used to keep the pidgins and sparrow populations under control around the farm.

When I was in Alaska I shot many snow shoe rabbits and spruce grouse with my RWS mod 48 .177 spring air rifle.

When the .22lr shortage came along I dusted off the old mod 48 and started shooting that again.

I favor the spring guns, they are very simple, none of the other infrastructure that is required with the PCP guns, spring guns wear out fairly quickly, but a complete over haul takes about 30 minutes with a coffee break and the parts cost around $10.00. In this category, the gas spring (gas strut) guns are an improvement, they tend to be a little easier to cock, a bit quieter, and even shoot a bit harder. Other advantages, they can be left cocked, for extended periods of time, with out fear of damaging the main spring, the recoil is easier to manage making accurate shooting easier.

The PCP guns are easier to shoot accurately, but you have to have some sort of high pressure pump, and you are limited to around 20-25 consistent shots between charges.

The shot count goes down with the large bore guns. Folks have successfully taken big game to include buffalo with ,45-50 cal guns. Which I feel may be a bit questionable, the same folks who willing sally fourth to hunt big game with the big bore PCPs, would look askance at any of us who went after the same animals with a .45 Colt, which in reality develops the same amount of energy.

For some target shooting and pest control around your own property, the new generation of affordable PCP guns are fairly attractive. There is also a sort of hybrid PCP gun that has an installed pump, that is good for a number of shot between pumping operations.

These days air guns come in calibers from .177 to .50. for the PCP guns and up to .30 cal in the spring/gas spring rifles.

There is a PCP pistol that produces nearly 1000 fps in .22 cal, suitable for small game and the cost is commensurate.

There are companies out there making molds and swedging equipment so you can produce your own projectiles, which for .177 and .22 is not cost effective. But once you get into the .25 cal.+ it is .

      
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Old Ranger
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Posted: May 05 2018 at 9:12am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Pardon my ignorance, but the only PCP I know of is that
chemical that made some suspects go berserk and forced us
to break bones and choke out in order to get 'em to jail.
So... What are y'all talking about here? I'm guessing
pneumatic cylinder? Chamber? Something? Beats me, as I
don't follow BB guns. All I got in an ancient Daisy Red
Ryder that my daughter left here ages ago.

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richhodg66
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Posted: May 05 2018 at 10:22am | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

Air guns are great for a lot of reasons. Cheap, accurate, fun, better game getters than many think. I sniped squirrels at our house in urban Topeka, sure couldn't have gotten away with that using a .22.

I live out in the sticks now and can shoot anything I want, anywhere on my place, so the itch for air guns has died down for me, but that .25 caliber Benjamin would do any small game task I think a rimfire would do for me.

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turbo1889
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Posted: May 05 2018 at 12:59pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Old Ranger wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but the only
PCP I know of is that
chemical that made some suspects go berserk and forced
us
to break bones and choke out in order to get 'em to
jail.
So... What are y'all talking about here? I'm guessing
pneumatic cylinder? Chamber? Something? Beats me, as I
don't follow BB guns. All I got in an ancient Daisy
Red
Ryder that my daughter left here ages ago.


Pre-Charged Pneumatic
(Airgun)

It is basically an air gun with a small scuba type
very high pressure air tank built into it that fires
from the pressure in the tank and you refill the tank
with a very high pressure pump or from a much bigger
scuba tank. They are among the most powerful airguns
(I think why becomes fairly obvious when you compare
the massive amount of pressure in a scuba type tank to
anything one could cock by hand such as a spring
powered air gun).

The old "pump up" BB guns that were a step up from the
red-rider type single cocking guns were a very
primitive and cheap version of a PCP airgun only with
the pump built into the gun. Very, very, very few
modern PCP guns have a pump built into them. The pump
is usually a seperate item. Although advanced
multiple stage high pressure bicycle style pumps are
available that you can pump by hand it takes a lot of
pumping with one to fill up a tank, thus most people
use a "shoe box" pump which is electric and you
guessed it about the size of a shoe box to fill the
tank on their guns. Usually takes 15-min on a shoe
box pump to fill up a PCP gun with a decent size tank
on it (sometimes built into the stock, sometimes under
the barrel long and skinny like a tube mag on a
shotgun). Small caliber guns get a lot of shots per
tank fill, the big bore guns get only like three full
power shots. But that kind of actually fits in nicely
since the big bore guns are used for hunting big game
with only a couple shots needed if you do your part
(or best of all just one shot), and the small caliber
guns for small game where you shoot a lot more.

Main thing I like about any of the PCP airguns of 9mm
or larger caliber is that you can use regular bullet
molds to make your own pellets and all you need is an
air pump (electric shoe box with manual pump backup if
things get really tough) and you have a quiet but
powerful gun that you need no primers for and no
gunpowder for, just a mold, some lead to melt and a
way to melt it. Campfire combined with some muscle
work on the manual pump could keep a guy armed for a
long time. Granted number of shots is pretty limited
but its a way to save the real ammo for the real guns
for serious tactical use if it comes down to the point
where they choke off the primer supply and the sources
of making your own primers (which is not easy and is
reasonably easy to choke off what is needed to do it)
which is the true bottle neck that if they ever get
truely serious about a long run assault on the peoples
arms is the place to choke things off.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 05 2018 at 1:53pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

turbo1889

The 9mm/.357 guns are a good choice, because of the mold availability that you mentioned. There a lot of choices in that diameter, suitable for small game and with careful shot placement up to deer.

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turbo1889
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Posted: May 05 2018 at 3:50pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Yah, its also the smallest size that normally
available molds will work for. Bigger sizes like the
40-cal, 41-cal, 44-cal, 45.2-cal, 45.8-cal, & 50-cal
will of course work also for standard bullet molds.
But if you try to go smaller with 30-cal, 25-cal, 22-
cal, 17-cal regular bullet molds don't work very well
unless you happen to have a mold intended for 32-ACP
which will work for the 30-cal but that is not all
that common, most 30-cal regular bullet molds (and 25
and 22 as well) are too heavy to work well in the
airguns. And 17-cal is pretty close to impossible,
you just buy a big 50-lb bag of BB size lead sotgun
shot and call it good for emergency use for that size
and when your out your out although a 50-lb bag used
one BB at a time does last a long time.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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turbo1889
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Posted: May 05 2018 at 3:56pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

45.8-cal with a long high twist rate barrel is the way
I intend to go though when I finally make the plunge
(I've been researching this for a while).

Anything from big 500+gr. pills intended for heavy 45-
70 loads launched at magnum 4,500-psi charge levels
that can take down an elk or even a bear with careful
shot placement down to using simple round ball at low
pressure fill for stuff down to bigger rabbit size and
then use my good 177-Cummins with its mods for
anything smaller. Already got a large selection of
45-70 molds in my collection. Don't see the point in
the big 50, don't already got the molds and over range
the slightly smaller diameter longer length big 45-70
pills I think will come out ahead of what most 50-cal
pills can do.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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turbo1889
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Posted: May 05 2018 at 4:04pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

I've also considered seeing if someone will build me a
gun with interchangeable barrels so I could just unscrew
one barrel and screw in a different caliber, that would
be the ultimate versatility. Many of the better big
bore PCP guns that can handle full 4,500-psi magnum
pressures are built by small shops one at a time
(notable exception being the Big Bore "Texan" which is
actually now small scale production lined). I'm not
really interested in the South Korean commercial big
bore guns. Yah, their cool and half the cost or less
but they just don't pack the punch that the U.S. made
small shop guns are putting out.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 05 2018 at 4:05pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

turbo1889

"Tell me about it" I bought a "jug" of BB sized bird shot, I do not think I will live long enough to use it up.

It did not cost much, because the sizes are pretty erratic. You have to be pretty careful shooting stuff like that in a spring gun, the under sized stuff is pretty much like firing an empty gun, which can break a spring.

I have been sorting through the round balls with a micrometer. The under sized ones go in my lead pot.

The real draw back to the PCP guns is all of the stuff you need to recharge them. But if you do not mind a little exercise, the high pressure hand pumps work and are pretty inexpensive.

The big bore PCP guns are not a new idea, Lewis and Clark had one they carried with them on their epic journey.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 05 2018 at 4:07pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

turbo

I think the interchangeable barrel thing has been done.
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Pete D.
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Posted: May 06 2018 at 3:02am | IP Logged Quote Pete D.

Quote:
As far as PCP guns go if and when I get
into that I plan on going all in for one
of the big bore 45-cal 4,500-psi guns that
uses cast lead 45-70 as pellets and can
push a 405-gr. pill out there at 950-fps
or so muzzle velocity.

Tell me more about these 4500 psi guns.
Who makes them?
How do they get pressurized?

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 06 2018 at 6:06am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Pete

There are a number of companies that make big bore PCP guns, the most reasonably priced are the guns made by Sam Yang (sp?) in China.

Pyramyd Air

Here is a link you just need to navigate to the PCP guns they have a pretty good selection. There is also a link on the page to the Airgun Academy that has a lot of useful information about air guns.

The high pressure guns need a high pressure compressor, or you need a scuba tank to fill the gun and a place to get the scuba tank re filled.

The simple option is a high pressure hand pump, it looks a bit like a bicycle tire pump. To charge a 4.5K psi gun you will need a big bowl of Wheaties..:)

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richhodg66
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Posted: May 06 2018 at 6:24am | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

There was a fella who used to post on here now and then quite a few years ago who was into the big bore air rifles and had quite a bit of big game pictures to show for it. Haven't seen him in a while, but there are models out there now that are certainly capable.

Seems when I looked into it, Crossman made one that was a .35 caliber and actually got mid range .38 Special ballistics. I don't trust my accuracy level with a pistol to do it, but the way I deer hunt, killing one with a rifle that got those ballistics wouldn't be a problem, nor would it for any bowhunter who knew what they were doing.

I like air guns. When I got the Sheridans, a mold came up on Ebay for making 5mm pellets for them and I bid, but that thing went for crazy money. Apparently, a lot of guys thought like I did on self sufficiency. You could keep yourself fed with such a rifle and let's see the antis try to regulate air (well, they'll try someday, I'm sure).

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 06 2018 at 11:45am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Rich

Too late there, some states already have regulations pertaining to air guns. I believe it is one of the Dakotas that has a regulation limiting the power of air guns, as do New Jersey, Delaware and Michigan.

In England, they can only have guns that produce 12 ft/# or less.

With the smaller caliber guns, a good round ball is as effective as a pellet and in most cases will penetrate a bit better. The odd thing about this is that the round balls are easier to make, but when you buy air gun specific round balls they cost more than pellets..
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richhodg66
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Posted: May 06 2018 at 12:06pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

We were mandated to use non-lead pellets last year for my air rifle team (don't get me started), and the ones we use now are a "tin alloy" according to the packaging. Probably not as accurate as lead, but it is what it is.

The damn things are very hard and lighter than lead, as a result, the pellet traps which stopped lead well allow these to bounce out with considerable force an alarming amount of the time. They rarely make it back to the firing line, but if I wasn't as vigilan about the kids wearing eye protection as I should have been, I sure am now.

Back to the story, I have a TC Contender rifle in .17 HMR. Great rifle, but this is just about a worthless cartridge to me, too destructive on edible small game and not powerful enough for varmints. That said, I'm considering having it rechambered to .17 Hornet since it's now a factory offering and using some of these harder, stronger pellets as projectiles using two grains of Bullseye or similar like I do with my .22 Hornet, might make for a pretty awesome squirrel rifle.

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turbo1889
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Posted: May 06 2018 at 1:47pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Pete D. wrote:
Quote:
As far as PCP guns go if and
when I get
into that I plan on going all in for one
of the big bore 45-cal 4,500-psi guns that
uses cast lead 45-70 as pellets and can
push a 405-gr. pill out there at 950-fps
or so muzzle velocity.

Tell me more about these 4500 psi guns.
Who makes them?
How do they get pressurized?


The two companies I have been looking at are:

http://www.extremebigboreairrifles.com

http://www.xp-airguns.com



And then of course a lower cost alternative due to
their small scale assembly line mass production (as
apposed to small shop made one at a time like the
above listings) is:

Texan

Now, the Texan comes from the factory only rated for
3,000-psi but there is a conversion kit out there with
an upgraded tank, valve, breach assembly which will
bring it up to the 4,500-psi level, can't remember who
sells that upgrade kit but its aftermarket. Just do
some internet searches, its out there.

Edited by turbo1889 on May 06 2018 at 1:52pm


__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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turbo1889
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Posted: May 06 2018 at 2:00pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

As to what you use to pump them up with, here are some
options:

G-shopping 4500psi
Pump


__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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