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Old Ranger
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Posted: May 15 2018 at 7:22am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Fixed the problem with the Ruger. Got rid of it.
Bought a Bounty Hunter.
Ranger all happy.

The old Boser SWC [429360] is a might quirky with some
loading. Unexpected flyers with mild loads and slow
powder. But moderate to just under maximum with fast to
moderate burning powder and this bullet will perform!


In my Bounty Hunter, near max loads with Universal or
Unique are tight shooting loads. Blue Dot can give some
impressive results if kept fast. But if the loads are
near "target velocity" They tend to spread out. But
either in the mag or spl cases the old Boser SWC is magic
if loaded right. And they are dynamite on hogs and such.
Never needed a follow-up shot on even the biggest hog
I've plugged with it. Great bullet that tears one hell-
of-a wound channel!

Gordon Boser was a great gunsmith of the mid 20th century
that specialized in revolvers. He developed a .41 cal.
that was a true magnum. Sadly it never caught on. He was
a genius though. And I'm still looking for an Ideal mould
with his SWC design in .358". Only been searching since
1970 but without any luck. A RARE mould to say the least.

If y'all get a chance look up Gordon Boser on the net
thing and read about him. Not enough there really, but it
does touch upon some of his work. Fascinating man.

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Paul B.
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Posted: May 15 2018 at 11:52am | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

Speaking of long shots with the .44, here's a story with a grin.

My buddy and I were invited to do an elk hunt on the Olympic
Penninsula just out of Humptulips Washington. We were out taking a
break while all the hunters were coming in so we could play the next
way we would hunt. One member of the party was an old retired judge
who absolutely hated handguns in any form. Now my buddy and I were
packing S&W .44 mags, his the M29 and mine the 629 and this old
goat of a judge got in our faces about the handguns. He said they were
just weapons for murder and couldn't hit anything past ten feet. Now
we were standing on a ridge and looking down you could see the
Humptulups River through an opening in the trees. I asked the judge if
he though I could hit the river way down there? It was maybe a 200
yard shot downhill and straight line maybe 75 to 80 yards. You could
see a tree branch that was over the water so I bet the judge $100 I
could hit the river from where I stood. He said that gun won't shoot half
that far. I put up a $100 bill, had my buddy hold it an said either bet or
back off on the anti pistol crap. He took the bet and I said let's see
how close I can come to that branch, the splash should give a goo
idea of where I hit. I shot, the branch broke and I turned to the judge
and asked, "You want to go double or nothing?" The bum not only
welched on the bet but asked one of the hunters to take him home.
Never saw him aging during the rest of the hunt. My buddy just smiled.
He knew a sucker bet bet he saw one. At the time we'd been hunting
jack rabbits at night and only head shots counted.
I do wish I could still shoot that well with the .44. Getting too damned
old and it just ain't fun any more.
Paul B.
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M700
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Posted: May 15 2018 at 1:21pm | IP Logged Quote M700

Great story Paul!

I think a lot of folks just didn't, and don't, understand how accurate a good handgun can be.

Mostly I use my handguns at 25 yards and less, but sometimes I'll plink more distant targets with them. Always thought handgun silhouette would be a lot of fun, but it doesn't seem very popular anymore. My club has dozens of the targets, from back in the 1980's, but we haven't had a handgun silhouette match in 20 years or more.

Guy
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twillis
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Posted: May 16 2018 at 10:02am | IP Logged Quote twillis

Guy,

If you can find a club shooting Cowboy Levergun Silhouette, the targets and ranges are the same for NRA handgun silhouette. I expect if they are not holding NRA pistol matches at the same time they would at least let you shoot a practice round. Around here all the clubs hold joint NRA levergun and pistol silhouette matches. Some clubs are only out to 100 meters which is hunter pistol and pistol caliber levergun along with small bore levergun and small bore hunter pistol. A couple of them shoot the 200 meter silhouette matches too. Those would be cowboy levergun and long range pistol matches.

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Paul B.
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Posted: May 16 2018 at 3:17pm | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

My range does not allow shooting at beverage cans or other like stuff.
so when I take a .22 handgun to the range I spot baseball size rocks
and dirt clods. Handgun is an S&W K-22 with 5" barrel. It's definitely a
custom order as the S&W lable is dead center between where the
barrel enters the receiver and the muzzle. If it were somebody's cut
down it would not be centered.
Somethines when I'm working with my S&W M60 some yahoo will start
riding me about my "Saturday Night Special." I put a fresh silhouette
target up, march it out to the 100 yard line, come back, take a $100 bill
I keep on hand for just such times and tell he "mouth" the bet's $100 I
can hit that target. Put up of shut up. In the roughly five years I've done
it, I have not lost that $100 bill yet. Most people really don't know how
accurate a well made snubbie an shoot.
Paul B.
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Tom W.
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Posted: May 16 2018 at 6:30pm | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

Hey Paul, what's a $100 dollar bill?

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turbo1889
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Posted: May 16 2018 at 10:12pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

@ Paul B

I have a Judge like that in the darn
family. Retired Comifornia judge living
on a pension paid by the tax payers. One
of the first things out of his mouth last
time I saw him two years ago, "So I here
you bought some more guns since the last
time. Don't you think one or two is
enough?". My response = "Go ask the
victims of Wounded Knee how many they wish
they would have kept when scum like you
took them away, about two seconds after
you scum took them away."

@ the topic of 44s

I have mixed feels on 44s, the advantage
they have is their tolerances are tighter
and their case construction is of better
quality compared to a heavy +P 45-colt but
I still don't like dropping down in
diameter. Now the 454 solved both of
those issues but they went too hot, yah I
know you can download them but the casing
and gun cost is still higher as a result
compared with either the 44s or 45-colt
and most annoying of all, the weight and
physical size of the guns is too much
increased.

Call me picky but If they would just make
a 45 that was on the same specs as the 44
just up the caliber but keep the same case
construction, pressure levels, and good
tolerances, make the prices comparable for
both guns and ammo and salt the world with
the back history, popularity, and
everything else the 44s have going for
them and I'd be happy.

Basically I would like to go back in time
and make the 44-spl. the 45-spl. instead
everything else being the same adjusting
only the bullet diameter, let Elmer Keith
then develope the 45-mag. from the 45-spl.
case because it was a better case then the
45-Colt just like he did for the same
reason developing the 44-mag from the 44-
spl. and then let history run the same
course just with only the bullet diameter
upsized.

Unfortunately, no time machine, and even
if I did have one there would probably be
some time law enforcement to keep me from
making such a beneficial little change in
the time line.

So I'm stuck with both 44s and 45s and
even a 454 or two and not totally
satisfied with any of them totally.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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REM1875
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Posted: May 16 2018 at 10:22pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

turbo
The 45 Spl was called the 45 S&W (Schofield) .....
Ballistic and bullet wts of some of them were
surprisingly identical to the 45 ACP !!!
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turbo1889
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Posted: May 16 2018 at 10:32pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

REM1875 wrote:
turbo
The 45 Spl was called the 45 S&W (Schofield) .....
Ballistic and bullet wts of some of them were
surprisingly identical to the 45 ACP !!!


I'm aware of the 45-Schofield. But in terms of
tolerances and case construction it is not the same as
the 44-spl which is the whole reason Elmer Keith
developed the 44-mag based on it rather then the 45-
Colt or 45-Schofield. Just like the 45-Colt the 45-
Schofield was originally a balloon head case and never
head the case head engineering or decently tight
tolerances that the 44-spl. had which is what made the
day for the 44s in the long run.

Since modern cases have at least somewhat addressed
that fault for the 45-Colt the main legacy annoyance
that gets me into a twist is the sloppy tolerances.
Load up a few 45-Colt wheel guns then grab them and
shake, won't take you long to find one that sounds
like a darn tambourine with the cartridges sloshing
around in the chambers. Okay, maybe a little bit of
an over statement but not by a whole bunch. 44s are
usually much tighter. Same is usually true with
barrel internal dimensions for the 45s, although that
has been cleaned up somewhat and a few bad apples in
the 44s have somewhat tarnished their reputation.
Never the less due to these tolerance issues the 44s
often outshoot the 45s at long range accuracy even
when you use heavy loads in the 45s so both are
running even as far as the drop over range.

Those old cowboy movies, I have a strong suspicion
that if they were packing a 45 on their hip it wasn't
just their spurs you where hearing. Part of that nose
was the cartridges rattling around in the chambers as
well I strongly suspect.

That is the good thing about the 44s, usually nice and
tight and shoot that way too, but oh wouldn't it be
nice if they were just a little bigger.   

Edited by turbo1889 on May 16 2018 at 10:44pm


__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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REM1875
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Posted: May 17 2018 at 12:42am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Ok well in modern language
45 Colt (LC) = 44 Russian (a balloon case head)
454 = 44 S&W
460 = 44 Mag

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turbo1889
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Posted: May 17 2018 at 2:06am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Yup, the 44-Russian was indeed a balloon
head case as well. Although I've seen the
ammo (collection display) I've never
handled a gun that fired the cartridge. I
would imagine though that just based off
of vintage that tolerances we're as sloppy
for it as for the 45-Colt.

It's just one of those things where a
reputation is built up for one caliber
that actually doesn't have as much to do
with the caliber as it does with how it
was implimented.

A good example is the 6.5mm rifle caliber.
The Swedes did such a good job with their
6.5x55 cartridge and the rifles that fired
it that it the caliber itself into a
standard for long exceptional accuracy.
Truth be told though that if they or
anyone else had gone with a .257" or .270"
bullet diameter instead (next most common
sizes above and below) and done just as
good of job on cartridge development and
then implimentation in an accurate rifle
to fire it then those alternative calibers
would have gotten the reputation instead.
And over time the legacy would have
followed through to the point where if you
wanted a good off the shelf long range
accuracy bullet design and the same for
barrel blanks to use it in to develop a
new cartridge you would have to go with
that caliber. That is why we have the
current 6.5-creedmoor rather then
something similar in .257 or .270 caliber.
If the excellent work had not been done on
the 6.5-55 previously and the reputation
it developed there would be no 6.5-
creedmoor today.

The "legend" of the 44-mag only stands to
this day because of the above average
forward thinking elements built into the
44-spl. It could just have well gone
otherwise if that same forward thinking
had been put somewhere else.

But in reality I think the full legacy of
the 44s goes all the way back to the
original 22-rimfire (referred to today as
short). There was this thing called the
Henry rifle that quickly followed the
development of the original successful 22
rimfire a design that needed a fully
contained metallic cartridge to work
correctly and it's designer finding the
only suitable option being the 22 rimfire
but also finding it to be to week decided
to just upsize it by doubling all it's
dimensions and the 44-Henry was born,
rifles led to revolvers firing the same
cartridge, then came the improvement of
center fire leading to the 44-Russian,
then the 44-spl. once again upgraded this
time to an ahead of it's time casing
design, and then some guy called Elmer
Keith came along and we ended up with the
44-mag. Although, unless one considers the
444-marlin to be next stage which I do not
it did sort of stagnate at that point, at
least so far.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 17 2018 at 6:26am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Back when we were younger and our eyes better making long range shots with a hand gun was a lot easier.

Back in those days most folks that did not shoot or did not shoot hand guns, found it hard to believe that a hand gun could be accurate at any thing beyond 50 years and that was even a stretch.

Those of us who grew up reading the "gospel" of Keith and all of the other "pistoleros" of that era, thought nothing of making long shots.

A summer day back in the sixties would find me wandering around in the foot hills of the Adirondack mtns., in New York, working the hay fields looking for wood chucks with my Mod 29.

Then just for fun I would lie down pull my right knee up, tuck my .44 up against my leg and shoot at wood chuck mounds on the side hill in the next field over at 3-400 yards.

As far as the .44s being tighter than the .45s that may be true in some cases, the custom tuned .45s will do anything a ,44 will +.

As far as long range shooting with the side arm goes, it has become a lot more popular.

There is a video of Jerry Miculek, making an off hand shot with a S&W 686 chambered in 9mm at 1000 yards, another one of him shooting a metal plate at 400 yards with a S&W M&P 9mm.

Almost any modern hand gun is capable of consistent long range accuracy the limiting factor is the operator.

Some one mentioned the .45 Spl. this is a cartridge I believe that was designed by someone on this forum. A cut down .45 Colt case. Designed specifically to me more efficient with lighter cowboy action loads.

The cases are in essence a rimed .45 ACP case, not to be confused with the .45 Auto Rim which has a much thicker rim for use in .45ACP revolvers using half moon clips.

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turbo1889
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Posted: May 17 2018 at 7:00am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

John Van Gelder wrote:
. . .

Some one mentioned the .45 Spl. this is a cartridge I
believe that was designed by someone on this forum. A
cut down .45 Colt case. Designed specifically to me
more efficient with lighter cowboy action loads.

The cases are in essence a rimed .45 ACP case, not to
be confused with the .45 Auto Rim which has a much
thicker rim for use in .45ACP revolvers using half
moon clips.



I thought they called that wildcat (45-colt trimmed
down to 45-ACP case length) the 45-Cowboy.

But then I'm sure as most wildcats go there are
multiple names for it.

@ Back to the discussion of the 44s:

One thing I find especially annoying is the lack of
suitable hollow points that will actually mushroom
reliably for the 44-spl. Speer used to make a half
jacket 44-cal bullet with a Keith type profile and a
big hollow point and being a half jacket with the
whole nose exposed soft lead it would open up reliably
even when fired from a snub nose 44-spl. gun. Those
were good bullets, but they stopped making them some
years back. There is a custom bullet maker I have
found (I only have equipment to swag small bore 22-
bullets in a regular press, I don't have the equipment
to swag my own big bore bullets) that can make me the
same kind of half jacketed bullets but being a custom
maker his cost me a whole lot more. Seems since
almost everyone goes straight to the 44-mag. the 44-
spl. has been neglected to the point where you can't
even get off the shelf hollow points that will open up
at its lower velocities even for when handloading
unless you have an appropriate hollow point cast
bullet mold or have them made up for you from a custom
bullet swagger who makes them to order for you.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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REM1875
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Posted: May 17 2018 at 9:56am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

I was shooting jack rabbits with a 44-40 back then out
of a Umberti Remington 1875 .....when dinosaurs
roamed the earth.
The bottle necks I believe are the secret to the colt
lightning (44-40...38-40.....25-20 and 32-20) it's
where Rossi failed with the pump straight wall
cartridges.
Tolerances were terrible but accuracy was not lacking
and much improved with reloading......
I suspect the 44 Russian while owing none of it's
design to the 44-40 did share it's popularity ....
It did not see a share in the rifle market till lever
actions in 44 mag and the oddball bolt action like the
Ruger M-77 44.....
Interestingly enough the 44 Henry rim-fire used a
double strike firing pin to insure striking priming
compound.....
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 17 2018 at 12:44pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Turbo

If you look at the Starline page the case is listed as the .45 Special (Cowboy).

Last time I looked there were a number of commercial JHP loads of the special. There is a 165 grn. defense load for the special.

Hornady makes a lead SWC HP bullet that expands reliably at around 800 fps.
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Dave T
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Posted: May 19 2018 at 7:58pm | IP Logged Quote Dave T

I've owned more 44s than I probably needed, since all of them are gone
except the last one, which I purchased about 6 months ago.

I have a great fondness for the single action revolvers made by USFA and
came across a guy selling a 44 Special USFA Rodeo with a 4-3/4" barrel.
Bought it and it fills my 44 caliber (OK, .43 caliber) itch. Given its early 20th
Century look and feel, I'm shooting 246g RN lead at about 750+- fps. My
days of roaming the woods and desert are over so I just shoot steel plates
and paper targets and these smack the plates just fine and make holes
close together on paper. (smile)

Dave

Edited by Dave T on May 19 2018 at 8:00pm


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REM1875
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Posted: May 19 2018 at 11:49pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875


Dave T
"I have a great fondness for the single action revolvers
made by USFA"

As far as I have read and researched you can't go wrong
with USFA.
Sad they went under ......
That 246 RN is definitely a great choice for the 44 Spl
....too long for a lot of 44-40s

Edited by REM1875 on May 19 2018 at 11:51pm
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: May 20 2018 at 5:10am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

I enjoy my flat top Ruger .44 spl. but in reality my Blackhawk .45 will do about any thing the special will, if I drop the .45 ACP cylinder.

I posted some chronograph results several years ago. With a 240 grn SWC, the old Keith Auto Rim bullet you can hit the 1200 fps range.

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Buffalogun
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Posted: May 21 2018 at 10:39am | IP Logged Quote Buffalogun

turbo1889 wrote:


Call me picky but If they would just make
a 45 that was on the same specs as the 44
just up the caliber but keep the same case
construction, pressure levels, and good
tolerances, make the prices comparable for
both guns and ammo and salt the world with
the back history, popularity, and
everything else the 44s have going for
them and I'd be happy.


Todays .45 Colt cases are capable of handling the same pressures as current .44 Mag cases. If you own a firearm capable of taking the pressures, you can increase the loads.



The weak .45 Colt case idea has been laid to rest for some time now. As Brian Pearce has shown!


Mike

Edited by Buffalogun on May 21 2018 at 10:42am


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Paul B.
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Posted: May 21 2018 at 1:16pm | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

The big reason Elmer Keith went to the .44 Spl. is the Colt single action
.45's kept blowing up with his stout loads.

I have Colt singles actions in .44 Spl. and .45 Colt and the cylinder walls
of the .44 are much thicker. My Colt .44 Spl. 5.5" barrel is NIB, never
fired and the cylinder has never been turned since the time I bought the
gun. I really should take it out one of these days and make it go bang.
I usually shoot the Specials in an S&W 624 with 6.5" barrel and use
Skeeter Skelton's pet load of 7.5 gr. of Unique and the 250 gr. in my
alloy #429241 bullet.
Paul B.
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