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John Van Gelder
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Posted: June 10 2018 at 6:06am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

The gun the Army ended up with is the Sig P320. A modular striker fired gun. Sig beat Glock out for the contract, and Glock is still complaining about that. However the Sig may not have been the best choice, since there were a number of issues of the gun firing if dropped.

I am not sure why Glock even thinks they have something to complain about since the Army specifically asked for a modular gun and the Glock that was submitted was not.

The Sig has a number of frame sizes available for shooters with different sized hands, everything on the gun can be changed out in a matter of minutes, the frames are not serialized, the fire control system (the actual gun part) is.

The debate about which is better the 9mm or the .45 continues, but at the end of the day the 9mm is the most popular handgun cartridge on the planet, for military, police, and in the civilian market.

I find myself shooting the 9 more than anything else these days, less powder, less lead equals more shooting..

And if all you are doing is ventilating paper, the size of the hole is pretty unimportant.

Lots of incidents out there of folks shooting every thing from rabid dogs to Alaskan grizzlies and even moose with the 9 because that is what they had. You will always be better defended with something you shoot well, and it easier for most folks to shoot the 9 than the .45. Everything in North America has been shot with the .22LR, the 9 gives you a considerable margin over that.



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Dave T
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Posted: June 11 2018 at 11:06am | IP Logged Quote Dave T

You seem to have bought what the 9mm is selling. More power to you.

Hope you don't mind if I continue to shoot my 45s (ACP & Colt).

They do what I need a handgun to do, they are quite familiar (like old friends),
and I get a great deal of satisfaction out of shooting them.

Dave

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STCM(SW)
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Posted: June 11 2018 at 11:05pm | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

Yea, two days ago I shot the 1941 Luger and a 1911 9mm alot.
But I really liked was my Kimber 1911 Pro Carry II!
Forgot how great the grips, sights and trigger were...
upload img

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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 5:16am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Oh boy! Another 9mm v.s. 45 dust up! Yee Haw!

Two nights ago the part time dog here [belongs to a
neighbor down the road but stays here] jumped a young
raccoon and tore the little guy up pretty bad. Put 3
.22LR into the poor thing to put it out of its misery.
Yeah grizzly bears, moose, buffalos may have been killed
with a 22 but Texas critters like armadillos, snakes,
raccoons and such take a bunch of 22's to kill em.

9 "Mickey Mouse" is fine if you wanna wound your opponent
I guess. You wanna put 'em down permanent you best use a
45 or a 357. The old "Two in the chest, one in the head"
mentality arose from the 9mm being such a puny cartridge.
You center punch 'em once in the chest with a 45 and you
saved yourself some ammo.

Ok, you boys tell me I'm wrong. Tell us all about how
wonderful the 9 Micky Mouse is. Go ahead. I'll be here
chuckling.

Carry on. Smoke if ya got 'em!
Ranger out.....

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 6:32am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

I think I specifically mentioned that my 9mm comments were not an endorsement of one or the other.

Not everyone is comfortable shooting a .45, and I would much rather see someone carrying a 9mm they can shoot over a .45 they cannot, or carrying nothing.

The FBI did some pretty extensive testing, using the 9mm, the .357 SIG, .40 S&W and the .45ACP. With modern expanding bullets there was very little difference in penetration depth and expansion in the test medium.

Overall, it was much easier for the agents to shoot accurately with the 9mm, and there is the added benefit of having a higher round count available.

Actual gun fight statistics are a bit hard to come by, or at least hard to find. There is a table in the information part of this site. That has published information concerning shooting incident statistics.

Nothing is guaranteed 100% to stop an assailant with one shot. The table has the number of involved shootings, the number of one shot stops and the difference is listed as a percentage.

The .308 and .223 both scored 98% with the information presented.

The 125 grn loading in the .357 scored 96% and that also had the largest number of shootings of any of the loadings on the list. The federal 230 Hydro Shock loading in the .45ACP also scored 96%

The Federal over pressure 9mm load scored 91% with the same penetration 13.9" as the .45 loading and nearly the same amount of expansion, .71 compared with .76 of the .45.

What I found interesting is the statistics involving standard pressure ball loads (FMJ) in this instance the .45ACP scored 62% and the FMJ load in the 9mm scored 70%.

Barrel length is not specified, but greater than 4" for the FMJ listings.

Which is best, the one you shoot the best, and have the most confidence with.

Jerry Miculek put on a demonstration with a S&W M&P 9mm, he put 6 shots on a target in under 1 second.

I like the 9 because it is cheap to shoot, if you load or buy ammo at the store. It is the most popular hand gun cartridge in the world for some reason.

On that note, I am going to try to squeeze in some time to day to cast more of those very nice 200 grn RNFP bullets for my .45





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Posted: June 12 2018 at 10:47am | IP Logged Quote RT58

I don't want to hi-jack the thread, but the shooting statistics given in those tables aren't worth the bytes their taking up.

Also, it was supposedly the poor performance of the 9mm round in the Miami shootout that directly led to the development of the .40 S&W and indirectly to several others. It sounds like they're trying to use the "crutch" argument again that started the "spray and pray" tactic.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 12:21pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

I may have to check on that but I thought that it was the poor performance of the .40 S&W that lead the FBI to reevaluate their issue side arm.

Not the poor performance of the .40 cartridge, but the poor performance of the shooters.

Standard pressure loads in the 9mm produce on the average of 11-1200 fps. The NATO round uses a 124 grn bullet at just over 1200 (which is considered to be a +P load). I have some .45 ACP loads, that are not over pressure that will drive a 200 bullet at between 1050 and 1100 fps. It does not take any rocket science to figure out which one is more effective.

Jeff Cooper was a driving force behind the development of the 10mm, the problem was that most people could not shoot it well, that lead to the development of the .40 S&W. A very good compromise load, but still a bit much for some recoil sensitive shooters.

I taught small arms when I was in the service, watch standers had to qualify with the 1911, most of those young people did very well if they could keep most of their shots on a 4'X 4' target at 10 yards.

No amount of "horsepower" will compensate for the lack accurate shot placement.

How much does it take to put an assailant down. I worked several homicide cases where the weapon of choice was the .22LR in a hand gun.

The average energy values for a 4" .22 with high speed ammunition is around 80 ft/#.

You are just as dead if you take a .22 through the aorta, as you are if hit in the same place with a .50.

Anyone that has been involved with fire arms for any length of time can see a trend away from the large calibers, in favor of light weight high velocity rounds.

The 5.7X28 is gaining in popularity. It's primary use is in the P90, a small light weight submachine gun, that is used for "special operations".



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RT58
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Posted: June 15 2018 at 6:20am | IP Logged Quote RT58

John, I don't know if the FBI is having trouble with the .40 or not, I've been out of the loop for a while.

They blamed the 9mm for failing to stop a suspect that started the Miami shootout. The FBI then tested every handgun round available, except for the .41AE, and decided that the best choice would be a 10mm at a reduced velocity to make it more manageable for every agent. They adopted the 10mm Lite but their new handguns were still too large for "every" agent and wouldn't chamber the long cartridge reliably, so S&W came out with the .40S&W. It's funny that the .40S&W is so close to the .41AE, and the FBI didn't even know it existed before their testing. Probably because S&W didn't chamber it.

I don't think chamber pressure has much to do with effectiveness, certainly not as much as the gun writers are trying to convince us of, as they'll say anything to sell a magazine. Neither does kinetic energy, another hot topic for magazine writers that like to think it makes or breaks a cartridge. That argument has been around for well over a hundred years and was dispelled in 1904.

And Marshall and Sanow's "stopping Power" information is just a re-hash of misinformation presented in a way to make it appear "scientific". It's not about "gunfighting" statistics, it's based on autopsy results and has changed several times over the years to suite the changes in gun magazine writers hype. It's usually embellished with their personal opinions and skewed to "prove" something in particular.

Looking at a corpse on a table tells you nothing about a cartridges effectiveness. It can have only one hole in it for many reasons other than "it stopped him instantly". Likewise, a corpse may have several holes from a given cartridge due to reasons other than "it took that many to stop him".

You were right earlier, their is no cartridge that is 100% effective, regardless of what Ed Sanow wanted everyone to believe, and a person is best suited choosing a firearm/cartridge based on what they feel most comfortable with and can handle the best. The "caliber wars" are nothing but garbage that the gun writers use to sell magazine articles, along with most of the other articles they write, and should be labeled as "for entertainment purposes only".

The FBI has an annual publication called "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" (LEOKA). I did some research with these a while back and found them very informative and I believe every issue is available on the FBI website as a downloadable file. They won't settle the "caliber war", but it isn't really an issue anyway.

Guys I've talked to that shoot the 5.7x28 say it's great if you're using the AP ammo. Other than that it's nothing more than a .22 magnum.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: June 16 2018 at 5:38am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

The 5.7x28 in a concealable carry handgun size may even be less effective than the .22WMR.

I believe it is Kel Tec, that produces a 30 shot handgun in .22WMR, better shot count and considerably cheaper ammunition.

The physiology of how lethal a projectile (at reasonable handgun velocities), is directly proportional to the resulting blood loss. The only way to have an instantly fatal result is to disrupt the central nervous system, or completely stop the heart, and that is not always instantly fatal.

Once a subject, has a certain level of adrenalin or some other substance in their system they become increasingly hard to stop.

In these situations, large heavy bullets that can break major bones are more likely to produce the desired result.

I did find the article on the FBI/Florida incident, and in that case they decided that the 9mm was inadequate.

Their decision to revisit the 9mm is based on the better performance of the current generation of jacketed HP bullets. The over all better shooting scores achieved by the agents in training. The higher round count of the smaller caliber, and a big/the big one "cost".

Based on my experiences shooting big game animals with the handgun. I feel that the best choice, would be a .45, shooting a 180 grain full wadcutter bullet at around 1000 fps. The wad cutter with all of that surface area would give greater energy transfer, without having to count on expansion, which is always a bit problematic at hand gun velocities. That shape would insure adequate blood loss, and there would be sufficient mass to do major damage to large bones.

The problem here is that full wad cutters do not function well in semi autos, and at the elevated velocities the guns become more difficult to shoot.

Probably the best answer is to start issuing "Phasers"..

Some police departments do carry Tasers, but even those have varying results and they are pretty close range devices.   



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RT58
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Posted: June 16 2018 at 8:34am | IP Logged Quote RT58

John, I pretty much agree with you.

Stopping the heart doesn't usually cause instant incapacitation, unless the subject decides to stop voluntarily. One of the biggest factors in bullet effectiveness is who is getting shot with it.

I read over the published reports of the Miami shooting quite a lot when they were made available. Just like most shootings, including JFK's assassination, the bullets performed just like they were expected to, not how the manufacturers claimed they should, but how they do from past practice. Also, like most other shootings, there was a lot of good information about gunfights in the Miami reports that were overlooked, or ignored, because the investigators didn't know what to look for.

There is no perfect all around cartridge for everyone, especially if they are not all "gun people". And historically "cost" has cost a lot of good Americans their lives.

One thing I don't understand though is I've heard a lot of people say "...such and such cartridge is better than the others now due to various improvements in technology...". Wouldn't every other cartridge benefit from those improvements too?

I prefer large caliber wadcutters too. Exact caliber isn't as important as the .051" difference between a .40 cal. and a .45 cal. just isn't worth the argument. There are more important issues, such as how fast and how well the shooter can control the weapon.

For the most part I still prefer revolvers. I know autos have higher capacities and can be reloaded faster, sometimes, but revolvers have advantages too, such as faster to draw from a thumb-break holster and more natural "pointability". Plus the ability to handle a larger variety of ammunition, which is way overlooked. Auto loaders are better suited to gamers that need the high capacity crutch and have to stay inside a "batters box", but that has nothing to do with reality and it's time those two realms are separated again.
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REM1875
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Posted: June 16 2018 at 10:17am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

We make the best decisions with the info available ...
including ours and friends .... we go with what we can
afford and are comfortable with...... If we are open
minded we go with new advances ...if not not we go with
what killed em for decades and decades and are aware of
any limitations.
If we are blessed enough the gun and caliber we stomp
through the boonies with might not be the one we carry
around the house, downtown or even in the house .....

We often were and still are most likely to buy what is
available. The importance of the brick and 'mortar' gun
store can not be overstated whether we buy from them of
not ......the drool on the glass shelf and the yeah let
me see that can not be overlooked ....
With this group is the added bonus more than a few of us
actually carried on duty.....
And the fact that we roll our own ammo adds even more
....
Some places the opinions carry   more weight than others
...published or not ......
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RT58
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Posted: June 17 2018 at 4:54am | IP Logged Quote RT58

You are right Rem, we all have our opinions. Some are personal and are easily sorted out on the range, such as which make and model of firearms, replacement parts, accessories and etc. we prefer. I do see a lot of people who prefer to let others make these decisions for them, which I see as a little odd, but that's their choice.

Learning about gun fighting is a little different as we can't go to the range and get into a gunfight whenever we wish, so we are forced to look elsewhere. We can look at actual gunfights, but most people choose to learn from experienced people. I made the mistake of choosing the wrong people when I was young, and it took me a long time learn that they didn't have the experience they, and others, claimed they did. "Gunfighting" is a very profitable business and is inundated with charlatans, many of whom have become "celebrities" in the business. When I started to doubt my pedestal standers I did a little research into just who they were and was a little shocked at what I found. But again, what and who we choose to listen to is up to each of us individually.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: June 17 2018 at 5:58am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

I just posted this in the .357 thread:

I have been shooting more 9mm and .45ACP lately, those guns are just more convenient to carry. Yesterday I felt the need to go out and use some some old .357 loads.

High end 170 (358429) bullet loads.. There was this chunk of basalt about the size of a grapefruit, that I shoot at occasionally, I had chipped some pieces off of it with the 9, it is my small game 25 yard simulation target, one well placed shot with the .357 and I could not find a piece bigger than my thumb.

A heavily loaded .357 is hard to beat.

It is quite easy to be overwhelmed by all of the Internet gun "experts", some of them have some good information to offer but a lot are just crazy/stupid.

A line of thought that seems to run through a lot of the stuff you see, is what I call the Glock syndrome.

If it not a Glock, or does not emulate a Glock it is no good. Some of the experts go on at great length, about how they would not carry anything heavier than a Glock 19, and then there is the issue of a manual safety, no manual safety on your carry gun.

Since the introduction of the Glock, there have been a lot of accidental discharges, people shooting themselves when they re-holster their side arm and something gets into the trigger guard, police officers shooting other police officers, because they had their finger on the trigger of their side arm, effectively disabling the only safety.

Back when I was a police officer, one thing I noticed, on qualification days, was that most police officers are not gun people, and did not have the commitment to become proficient, above what was required for re-qualification.

Caliber is pretty irrelevant, they only thing that counts is how you perform under stress, a good hit with a .22 is better that a near miss with a .45.

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RT58
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Posted: June 17 2018 at 12:56pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

I was on a forum once where a guy was bragging about his Glock and how it was better than a long list of other firearms. Found out he'd never shot any of the firearms he listed.

I was my department requalification officer and even though "training" was not part of my job, I liked to try to teach the officers something they hadn't thought of each time we shot. Once I had them lay their firearms down on a piece of cardboard, slide open on an empty magazine. Then take two steps to the right so they would have to shoot someone else's handgun, (we carried our own weapons and they varied). On another day I had previously heard one of the officers laughing at an old top break .32 another officer had taken away from a young thug and how it was so cheap compared to his duty Glock. I qualified with an old top break .32 and made sure I was standing next to him.
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turbo1889
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Posted: June 17 2018 at 3:30pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

I agree with a lot of what has been said
in the dozen or so proceeding posts
but have some points of my own I would
like to add.

Someone brought up the old auto vs.
revolver debate for self defense use
stating their preference for revolvers for
many good reasons not the least of which
being the ability to handle full wadcutter
ammo. One very important disadvantage to
the revolver that is worth pointing out is
the difficulty with concealment of any
decent caliber sized revolver. That fat
cylinder just prints a bulge that is hard
to hide. I love my 45-ACP moon clip gun
and also am very fond of my 44-spl snubby
but unless it's coat and hat weather
forget it for packing any of them
concealed unless I'm willing to do the
fanny-pack, messanger-bag, briefcase
thing. The barely 1" thick frame of my
XDS-45 just conceals so much easier in
warm weather clothing and I can even drop
down to the two shot over under derringer
and still have 45-cal available in an even
smaller and thinner (11/16") package if
need be.

The only revolvers that are thin enough to
conceal as well as even a big bore auto
are in substantially smaller calibers - as
in 22-cal. My tiny little 5-shot 22-mag
NAA revolver is as thick across the
cylinder as my 45-auto !!!

In addition, not all autos require
smallish nose flat bullets to work. It is
true that I have only one auto that will
feed full wadcutters but I have several
that will feed some pretty wide and flat
nosed bullets.

As to actual results in combat, so far the
only thing I have under my belt that is
relative to this discussion is a dog
attack where it took three shots with a
380 to get the dog to stop chewing on my
leg and doing the tug-of-war thing with my
leg trying to drag me back down off my
feet so it could go for my neck again like
it had at first after taking me down of my
bicycle which I failed to outrun it on
after it's bratty punk kid owner
sicked the dog on me when I rode past his
house.

And it wasn't like Bang, Bang, Bang.

It was like . . . Bang, . . . . . Bang, .
. Bang.

That was the approximate timing of the
three shots because I had to re-aim after
each shot as I was being jerked around by
the dog and was struggling just to stay on
my feet.

All three shots were hits. All fired
townwards Into the dogs back center of
mass-ish, behind the neck downwards into
the top of it's chest on either side of
spine (wasn't lucky enough, good enough
under stress to hit the spine). All three
shots exiting out the bottom of the
dogs stomach just forward of it's rear
legs. Not straight down shots but at an
angle more vertical then horizontal.

And even then those three shots only made
the dog stop attacking me it still ran
back to it's owners yard nearly a half a
block and bleed out in it's owners yard
!!!

The gun was loaded with heavy for caliber
FTRN bullets cast from pure dead soft lead
with an aluminum pop can plain base gas
check loaded as hot as hell +P+ for a 380
all three shots full penetration with the
cops finding them on the pavement as dime
sized flattened out lead disks with the
thin aluminum pop can material gas checks
embedded into the back end of the disks.

After that I switched over to carrying the
45-cal two shot derringer instead of the
380 ultra-compact auto. And the loads I
have for the derringer are custom swagged
230gr that are a FMJ hollow base full
wadcutter loaded one way and a massive
100% meplat 73% hollow point with a full
bottom jacket loaded the other way. First
shot bottom barrel is loaded the hollow
point way second shot top barrel is loaded
the FMJ full wadcutter way. So far that
combination remains untested in "dog
combat" but I believe it should do better
then the 380 did and for effectively the
same size package with basically equal
concealment capability. I just have to
reload after two shots rather then six
shots.

I would ASSume (dangerous I know) that
beyond the lower legal bar for shooting an
attacking dog compared to shooting an
attacking human the same factors are all
at play. The defenders ability to bring
their weapon to bear effectively under
stress as well as the stopping power
capability of the weapon as configured.

I was not impressed with the results of
the 380 and considering the loads used in
the in the incident acheived 100% vital
hits, 100% through penetration leaving
leaks on both ends, and 100% mushrooming
out to dime sized diameter.

I'm not sure if the theoretically more
capable 9x19 would have done much better.
I realize there is a significant potential
difference in hydro-shock between the 380
and 9x19 but otherwise if it took three
good hits with the 380 spaced in time
apart as long as it took to re-aim to stop
the attack I'm not so sure that the
theoretical hydro-shock advantage of the
9x19 would have made much of a difference.

I decided I needed to go for a bigger hole
maker even if it meant sacrificing shot
count to maintain the same package size
and concealability.

Edited by turbo1889 on June 17 2018 at 3:43pm


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Posted: June 17 2018 at 8:15pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

Turbo, when I said I prefer revolvers it had nothing to do with the auto-revolver debate. That's another inane debate used to sell magazines, just like the caliber wars.

I have about 30 autos and shoot them just as well as my revolvers, and what I carried depended on the situation. Which handgun a person chooses should depend on what they like and shoot the best, not what some self proclaimed expert tells them is best.
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Posted: June 17 2018 at 9:16pm | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

Only thing I have is the striker fire pistol's have a better chance of causing misshapes then my 1911 , Browning HP or Walther PPK clone.
I prefer a S&W J frame or D frame Colt but do go to a L frame S&W 44 Spl if can CC under a jacket.

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turbo1889
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Posted: June 18 2018 at 12:52am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

STCM(SW) wrote:
Only thing I have is the
striker fire pistol's have a better chance
of causing misshapes . . .


I totally agree in principle, especially
if we are talking about Glocks. The only
way I personally am comfortable with a
Glock is if the chamber is empty or it has
been modified with an aftermarket safety.
Double action revolvers where the only
safety is "don't pull the trigger" are one
thing a Glock with the same kind of "don't
pull the trigger" setup but with a much
lighter and shorter trigger pull is quite
another thing. I'm barely comfortable
with my XDS-45 with it's backstrap grip
safety setup which I consider far superior
to a Glock. As far as getting the closest
to a double action revolver trigger I
actually really like the trigger/internal-
hammer setup in the SCCY auto pistols.
The feel and behave just like a DOA
revolver trigger nice and long and
reasonably heavy so there is little to no
chance of an accidental discharge but
still a smooth trigger so they can be shot
accurately. Can say the same thing about
the Taurus P25. Both of those guns are
also true double action, double strike
capable so you can just pull the trigger
again on a stubborn hard primer if need
be.

Believe me if I could get effectively the
same gun as my XDS-45 only with a true DAO
trigger like the SCCY autos use for $700
or so (twice what I paid for my XDS-45 and
triple the cost of an SCCY 9x19) I would
go for it in a heartbeat. But as of yet
nothing I know of fills that. I really
wish SCCY would try to build an ultra-
compact single stack 45-ACP gun.

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To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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John Van Gelder
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Location: NE Oregon
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Posted: June 18 2018 at 7:11am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

For a number of years I carried a 6" mod 29 concealed, with just a shirt over the top. More recently I carried my 5.5 " Redhawk .45. I have carried a little of everything, including a 8" 1858 Remington, concealed since 1958 and have never had anyone take me to task about it.

For most of that time, I did not have a holster, just stuck the gun in my waistband on the "off" side.   

The world has changed and the polymer frame striker fired guns are here to stay. Due to the fact that Glock had/has the market share for so long, the other gun manufacturers climbed on that band wagon.

There are however a number of gun makers, that market a DA/SA gun in either striker or hammer fired, with a decocker. The first shot is a long DA pull and each subsequent one is SA.

The Israelis carry their side arms on an empty chamber and practice charging the chamber on the draw and are very fast at it.

A compact .45ACP that I believe is a good choice is the S&W Shield, a single stack 6+1. The 2.0 model has some refinements that the earlier guns did not, most notable is the much improved trigger.

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STCM(SW)
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Location: Eastern Washington
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Posted: June 18 2018 at 6:53pm | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

I prefer a Smith & Wesson Magnum myself.....

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