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Subject Topic: Ideal 452460 200gr .45 mould Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 03 2018 at 9:41am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Had a nice old two cavity unit some years ago that was
"Liberated" along with several other moulds by a former
friend that turned out to be a skunk of the first order.
Lessons learned there became "NEVER loan nuthin' to
nobody if you ever entertain the idea of seeing it again.
Including family too!"

Thus I began looking for a replacement recently and found
a nice mid 50's Ideal single cavity. Clean and true with
no dents, dings, and especially no misallignment. likely
spelled that last one wrong but I don't care.
Will be here in a few days.

I used this 452460 for quite a while with my old Detonics
Scoremaster and sold many loaded rounds in my buisness
with great succcess. Always in a 45ACP though. now-a-days
I'm going to use it in both the 45ACP and the 45 Colt. As
with the 454190, the 452460 has no crimping groove. I
don't panic with that like some do. I've seen some
loaders go absoultly out of their minds if there's no
crimping groove present in cast bullets. It's comical!    
But the 190 is simply crimped where the sizing
tool stopped as the nose rounds off. Often that is right
at 1.60" anyway. The 460 is simply seated to where the
front driving band is just under the lip of the case and
then crimped to restrict forward movement. The case
tension holds it in place restricting being driven into
the case.

I am going to work up loads for the 45 Colt with both
TiteGroup and Universal with the 460 bullet. I believe in
advance that the TiteGroup loads with beat out the
Universal of standard loading as did Bullseye dominate
accurcy in the 45ACP over Unique. However, with near top
loads in Universal, I strongly feel that it will produce
decent accurcy with greater power. Mind you, I am NOT one
that loads the 45 Colt with the belief of making it a
magnum. If I want a magnum load I use a .44 Magnum and
not stress and deform cases and weapon trying to boost
the 45 Colt into something it was never designed for.

So I'm looking forward to the arrival of the 452460
mould. I honestly prefer iron mould over aluminum and
this bullet was a real performer for me years back in an
autoloader. Looking to extend it to an old style revolver
for more fun. Shucks, I load the 452374 230RN in both 45
ACP and 45 Colt with great success, why not the 460?

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Ham Gunner
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Posted: June 04 2018 at 9:35am | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

My Lyman 452460 double cavity that I bought many years ago was the first .45 mold that I latched on to. It worked great in .45 acp and I suspect with the proper light load, it would work great in the .45 Colt so that it does not shoot low.

My old New Service has a .454 bore and is the only .45 Colt I have ever owned, so I never tried loading the 452460 for the Colt. Will be interesting to see how it does in your Colt because I have a Cramer double cavity that drops a #5B and #5D. One is a 230gr. round nose with a slight crimp groove and the other is about a 205-210 very similar to the 452460.

The Cramer drops a bit large so either bullet could possibly be used for the .45 Colt if ever needed, but I do have the Lyman 454424 as well as the RCBS SAA 45 270 so I have never ventured to try the Cramers out in the .45 Colt.

Edited by Ham Gunner on June 04 2018 at 9:36am


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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 04 2018 at 2:29pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

I'll keep ya posted on the progress when the mould
arrives and I build some test loads Rick.

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: June 05 2018 at 11:42am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

The 452460, is one of the more popular target bullets for the .45 ACP. I have used the Hensley and Gibbs #68, that has one grease ring and a slightly longer nose, in the .45
colt. In the heavy frame blackhawk/redhawk, that bullet is very accurate and pleasant to shoot.

The low end loads in the Lyman manual are 900 fps+.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 05 2018 at 3:47pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

I personally prefer two lube grooves of generous size.
The 454190, 357446, 360271, 358250, 358495 and the 452460
all I find more suitable for my needs.

However, this 452460 may not now appear. Three days and
not a word from the seller nor notification of shipment.
Presently, this just compounds my ever-growing mistrust
of people. Thus far no response either on my inquiry of
status. If I get no response by tomorrow morning I'll
seek to terminate the transaction and demand my payment
returned.
There are honorable people about. Most I am familiar with
can be found here at this forum. The rest of those in the
world however, lead me into greater doubt of their
sincerity.
Tomorrow will be turning the page to this with finality
either way. A mould sent or refund made will be the
result. Either way too, one less individual to be viewed
with a favorable eye.

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: June 06 2018 at 5:11am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Did you purchase the mold from a private seller.?
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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 06 2018 at 11:57am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

An apparent estate sale vulture.
Got his attention with some choice comments.
Mould is now on its way.

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: June 06 2018 at 1:13pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

I bought a saddle on E-Bay several years ago, it was a very expensive saddle, for a good price, right until I got it, some one had coated it with a lacquer like substance. that destroyed the leather. There was a "gun fight", but I finally got my money back.

Hope you get your mold and it is serviceable..j
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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 09 2018 at 8:34am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Hot dog! Noticed by mail service for delivery today.
Better go chop more lead off the big plate huh? Gonna be
a busy casting afternoon.

See,some well chosen profanity interjected into a demand
for service can be most motivational. And y'all
thought my time as a Drill Sgt. was wasted!

No casting today. Hadda play wrangler today. Neighbor's
horses got out and were grazing in my front yard. Nice
looking palomino and two grays. All geldings. Drained my
dog's 5 gal. Water trough twice! They were thirsty!.
Grazed enough I don't need to mow either! Cool! No
one lives at the place and they show up every other day
or so and then leave. The horses just graze and do
little.

Got in contact with my neighbor's son and soon the whole
family came to get the horses. And while they were all
figuring where they got out and messing with the gate,
Old Ranger was bareback on the palomino with a Lakota
style rope fast bridle/reins leading the other two back
home. Was good to have the smell of horse in my
nose. Also the feel of one under me as well.

I'll cast later. It was a horse day instead.

Edited by Old Ranger on June 09 2018 at 2:59pm


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John Van Gelder
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Posted: June 10 2018 at 6:24am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

If it comes down to casting or sitting on a horse, the horse wins every time.

Now if you can sit on a horse and shoot at the same time..
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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 10 2018 at 6:39am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

The mould is so-so. Very very clean. The sprueplate has
grinding marks on the ear like someone cleaned up some
deformation caused by improper tool use. Possibly not
even the original plate at all. The seller is one of
those that disassembles the moulds for photos. I never
understood that fool notion.

Put the mould together and fired up the pot. Half a dozen
warm-ups and it was casting pretty good. After it got to
full heat I noticed wings from the vents appearing and a
slight ridge on the nose of the bullets. Typical
alignment issues. If I gripped the handles with more than
normal tension the problem lessened. Inspection of the
mould shows no damage to pins or sockets but there's a
problem none the less. I'll get it resolved. I always do.

Weight in my current alloy is 202gr. And as cast diameter
is .454" average. Lube grooves are good and driving bands
and base are flat and clean. Overall I've seen worse.
This mould is from the 50's by its design and stamping.
Highly possible the slight alignment issue was picked up
in its later years by a novice caster. There was as
mentioned earlier, grinding on the ear of the sprueplate.
No doubt a "correction" for some numbnut's use of a steel
hammer or rod instead of the proper tool. I've seen it
before unfortunately.

Overall I'm really not displeased. The minor issues are
correctable. And single cavity moulds are preferred by me
as they're sure to cast identical. And I'm casting for
myself alone. I don't get in a hurry. Don't use speed
loading Dillion presses. And am not consumed with massive
production. So simple is good here.
And tomorrow I'll load a few in a 45 Colt and see what
kind of pattern appears. I already know what it'll do in
a 45ACP.

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Rex
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Posted: June 10 2018 at 6:53am | IP Logged Quote Rex

Glad to hear that you've got it working Wade.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 10 2018 at 12:12pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Rex, you know me. If it's iron I can make it work. Those
aluminum jobs? That's why I have woods all around me to
throw 'em in!
This morning I dimpled the socket on the lower area and
then set it with some heat and a 3/8" steel ballbearing
tapped to flatten only the inside. Quickly spritzed with
Kroil. Solid repair. Guess being an old school trained
gunsmith has its rewards huh?

John, I've shot recurve and Lakota flatbow off ponies as
a kid. In the mounted unit of the P.D. we'd do live fire
with handguns and shotguns mounted. My buckskin gelding,
Dusty, was great as long as you didn't shoot right above
his head. With a longgun he'd lock all fours and dip his
head to the right for a steady shot. What a horse!

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richhodg66
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Posted: June 10 2018 at 12:29pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

" Drained my dog's 5 gal. Water trough twice! They were thirsty!."

Kinda makes me wonder if they're being neglected? I'm not a horse guy, but I'd hate to see an animal suffer. Where my folks were in Alvord there was a horse farm just up the dirt road and the horses looked unhealthily thin to me all the time. My younger brother, whi is a horse guy and owns a few, saw the horses when he was visiting and called whoever the animal welfare folks in the county were out to check on things, they looked that neglected. Never heard what happened but when I was back down there next time, there were fewer horses and the ones that were still there looked to be in much better condition.

Don't want to cause a riff between you an your neighbors, but you know horses, might want to check on them now and then.

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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 10 2018 at 1:38pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

The two greys were a mite thin. The palomino was fat and
sleek. They own a place out on the highway some 5 mile
S off. Many horses and some cattle there.

There's a nice 3 bdrm brick home here but they mainly do
dirt hauling for construction. No one lives here. The
back half of their place next to me is mostly dirt pits.
I think they just stash a few extra ponies here for
purposes unknown. But I do keep an eye on them. They're
all unshod and need a trim and clean up. I offered to
take my tools over and clean em all up but got the thanks
but no thanks routine. Oh well. So far no signs of
neglect but if they ignor them you can bet I'll get real
talkative about it quick!

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RECURVE
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Posted: June 10 2018 at 3:49pm | IP Logged Quote RECURVE

What make bow you got there John ? Look good on that
horse if I was younger I like to try that
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: June 10 2018 at 6:31pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Recurve

That is a Bear long bow, or more correctly a reflex/deflex bow. A cool picture you can actually see the arrow in flight. The horse is a Friesian, he is a draft, he is 18h, and just the neatest guy.

Back when I lived in Washington I was seriously involved in horse rescue, we pulled several horses out of a place, not because they were abused, but the owner had an accident and was in the hospital with no one to take care of the animals, we moved them in the middle of one of the worst snow storms any one had seen for years in that part of Wa.

Unfortunately a lot of folks who have horses, shouldn't.

   
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RECURVE
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Posted: June 11 2018 at 3:58pm | IP Logged Quote RECURVE

Great bow you're right about some people and Horses
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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 12 2018 at 5:48am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Ok, I'm gonna go off topic and talk bullets now

Tried some of the 452460's in the 45Colt.
From my 5 1/2" '71 open top I fired 10 at 15m with a
moderate dose of TiteGroup. Using my best grip and
maintaining proper trigger control I got a clustered
group with many touching about two inches total. Not bad
for 10 shots. I'm satisfied.

A mild roll crimp over the front of the driving band and
the bullets stayed put. Cleared the chambers with lots of
room. And best of all...... No Lead!
Guess it worked huh?
And no need to test it right this minute in the 1911A1
45ACP as this was the bullet I loaded for my customers
and me back in my dealer/gunsmithing days. For P.D.
training loads it was the Ideal 452374 225gr RN with
Bullseye. But even that bullet does well in a 45Colt with
a crimp at the ogive and a bit of mid range burning
powder.

Yup, I'm glad I barked like a Drill Sgt to motivate that
boy to send me this mould. The minor repair I did took me
10 min and brought this 60+ year old mould back to glory!
And as I've mentioned a few times, a single cavity mould
is fine. I'm not into speed. Don't need nor want a 6
cavity aluminum mould. If ya don't change the mix, your
last bullet is the same as your first. I like
consistency. A "One Banger" iron Ideal mould will give
you that.

Carry on. Smoke if ya got 'em.

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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 24 2018 at 9:09am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Further work with this bullet and TiteGroup proved a
success. Settled upon 6.2gr. Hits point of aim 15m~25m.
Extremely accurate at normal pistol range and hits pretty
hard. Though I doubt it would satisfy those that want to
make the 45 Colt into a magnum, I'm fairly confident this
load would let a lot of air out or a hog or coyote with
ease.

Also, I managed to isolate my trigger finger despite the
lingering effects of the stroke. In doing do I am
shooting this '71 open top Colt with amazing [for me]
accuracy. Working with careful aim and grip I managed a 5
shot cluster at 10m that resembles one big hole. For me
that's good shooting as I would often shoot low and left
due to poor grip. Self discipline, practice, and good
loads improved my shooting. The 452460 is a remarkably
accurate bullet and that helped considerably. I don't
often shoot that well, but some days are better than
others. I'd try Nick's pool ball shoot if I had a printer
and a way to post my target.

The old soft mix from the big x-ray plate sure is good.
Great engraving of the bore on recovered bullets and best
of all No leading! And I owe a lot of that to Rick's
personnel lube. Thanks amigo!

The minor adjustment has proven successful on the mould.
Dropping them square and straight. Glad I got it. Might
just build some in the 45ACP soon and enjoy that fine old
1911A1.

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