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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 19 2018 at 5:05am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Bought some Hoppe's #9 recently. Missed the wonderful
smell. Having but one rifle now that shoots jacketed
rounds, I decided to clean it with Hoppe's this time
instead of my own brew which is a great carbon cutter
mostly used on pistols. I have been cleaning my AR15 with
my own brew, or Ballistol for a deeper clean, until last
week. I cleaned my Dr. Evil with Hoppe's #9 after a
shooting session and discovered I was missing something.

First few passes with soaked patches pulled carbon and
bore filth nicely. But I noted a hint of green. Hummmm.
Ran a wet patch and let it soak for 30 min. Needed a
lunch break anyway. Came back and the dry patch I ran
through the bore was a vibrant green! Wow! Didn't
expect that. For the rest of the afternoon and the next
day I continued to pull green patches from the bore. And
it appeared there was no end in sight. In desperation I
switched to Montana Extreme Bore Polish. That cleaned it
up alright.

The bullet I've been using is the Hornady 55gr BTSP
loaded to around 2900fps to 3000fps.
Over the years I've noted that Hornady bullets tended to
smear my barrels with copper more than any other brand.
In the .30'06 I had it was pitiful how badly it coated
the bore. Same when I had a .45-70. And now this 5.56mm
is being copper plated as well with the Hornady bullets.
And sadly these are about all that I can find at a decent
price and are available.

Is there anyone else noting that Hornady bullets are
softer jacketed somehow than others?

Oh, and in spite of the tons of green showing up it was
wonderful to smell some Hoppe's #9 again.

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Ham Gunner
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Posted: June 19 2018 at 2:14pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

I agree that Hornady jacketed material seems to be a bit softer or whatever to the point that it deposits more copper in my bores than any other jacketed bullet that I have tried. Just like Federal brass seems to be excessively soft to the point that it only lasts a very few loadings, I find Hornady bullets to be excessively soft compared to other brands. I have occasionally shot some Noslers as well at times, but for the most part, Sierra bullets are my favorites and I can shoot twice as many of the Sierra bullets before fouling becomes an issue.

I like a few of the Hornady bullets as they fit a need and I could not find anything else suitable, such as the 160gr. RN Carcano 6.5mm sized .268 diam. Also I settled on the Hornady 45gr. HPBEE .224 diam. bullet with cannelure for my .22 K-Hornet.

The short cannelure HPBEE bullet was designed for the .218 BEE and was very accurate with Lil'Gun powder in my K-Hornet, but it fouled the bore very quickly so I just Moly Coated them and worked up my load and that worked out okay. I do the same for the 6.5mm Carcano bullet for use in my 6.5x257 Rob. A jacketed bullet should not have to be Moly Coated to prevent excessive fouling.

I do have to say that Hornady makes very accurate bullets and I have buddies that really love them and I found them to be very accurate myself. But when I shoot jacketed bullets, and that is very seldom these days, I prefer a jacketed bullet with harder jacketing material than Hornady.

Edited by Ham Gunner on June 19 2018 at 2:19pm


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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 20 2018 at 5:22am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Rick I do believe you're right. For ages I shot Sierra
bullets, always with satisfactory results. Hunted quite a
bit with Nosler too. Copper fouling was never an issue in
any of my weapons. Then in the past few years about all I
could find locally was Hornady, and that's when I believe
the problem began.

Shot some 62gr FMJ stuff yesterday. Wasn't Hornady
though. Can't remember who made em, but clean up was a
snap. And good old Hoppe's #9 was great. My own brew of
cleaner is fantastic on lead and carbon but falls short
with copper. Use it mostly in handguns where carbon
fouling is all over the place. But it was good to see
that despite the chance in formula in #9, it still is a
great cleaner for copper and such.

I will, however, be looking for sales on Sierra and Speer
bullets in the future. Locally the selection is sparce
and I suppose the internet holds the key? We'll see I
suppose.

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Buffalogun
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Posted: June 20 2018 at 6:57pm | IP Logged Quote Buffalogun

Wade,

You need to shoot that AR more and burnish the bore. That should help cut down on the fouling, no matter whose bullets you shoot.

And, I've had good service from using Butch's Bore Shine.

Mike

Edited by Buffalogun on June 20 2018 at 6:57pm


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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 21 2018 at 6:11am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Mike, I hate to sound contradictory but the comparative
evidence does point towards a particular brand of bullet.
In recent years I've only been able to find primarily the
Hornady brand. In the centerfire rifles I've owned in
that time all displayed excessive copper fouling with
Hornady as opposed to others I managed to use. Simple
logic would indicate that out of over half a dozen rifles
not all of them possessed rough bores. From a couple new
ones to well seasoned older ones all fouled badly with
Hornady. Doesn't take a wasp to sting me to know they're
about when I can see 'em.

Here's the funny part. I've got 1200 55gr BTSP Hornady
bullets in bulk here. Being low funded compared to
others, I reckon I'll be scrubbing my bore more than
usual for a while. Gonna take me awhile to shoot
that up. But I will say this, they're accurate none the
less.

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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 28 2018 at 7:43pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Update on the green...

Since the massive layer of copper deposit was done over 8
months and took a lot of work to get out, recent cleaning
is much quicker when involving Hoppe's #9. Yes, loads of
green still comes out of the bore, but it takes less to
remove it. Starting with a 100% clean bore first and in
spite of soft copper bullets fired, it does clean up much
better and more quickly.

Conventional 3/4" patches doubled still fail to clean
fully. Thus I switched back to my Otis rig for cleaning.
TIGHT patches reach into the grooves and pull fouling
like a champ. I use two 3" Otis patches to fully clean
and lube the bore and chamber. A neighbor once said that
since I buy Otis patches by the thousand at $56 that is
too costly averaging near 6 cents a patch. However, you
get 6 complete passes with one patch. And that patch
really digs in and gets the filth out.
For the same cleaning with little square patches I go
through about 35 to realize the same effect. And at the
going price of square patches that works out to 56 cents
per cleaning to 12 cents with the Otis.

So in conclusion the Hornady bullets continue to horribly
foul the bore, but with good 'ole Hoppe's #9 and my Oits
Tactical cleaning system I'm good to go. And uncorking a
bottle of Hoppe's #9 is a whiff of Mt. Olympus.

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turbo1889
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Posted: June 28 2018 at 8:51pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

I agree that Hornady bullets seem to have a higher
content of copper and lower content of zinc then most
other brands. This also includes their "GMX" solids
which are supposed to be made from solid
Guilding Metal and thus are not supposed
to copper fowl as bad as copper solids such as the
Barnes bullets. It is true that they don't copper
fowl as bad as the pure copper bullets but they are
worse then other brands guilding metal solids such as
those made by Nosler.

I think what Hornady is using as guilding metal (AKA=
metal alloy for making bullet jackets) is not the
traditional 95/5 alloy formula (95% copper / 5% zinc)
but something with more copper and less zinc. Such an
alloy is easier to make jackets from but doesn't
provide the same level of performance for the end
user. Or in other words its better for the company
making the bullets but messes over their customers in
the process.

I still use their bullets, however, because as you
reference they tend to be more economically priced and
more readily available then other brands. In addition
they make certain bullet styles in sizes that others
don't make an equivalent. For example form you 357-
H&H they are the only company making a guilding metal
solid for that caliber.

You can either just deal with it and scrub the copper
out of your bore. Or although probably not applicable
for a high volume gun such as your "Dr. Evil" you can
significantly reduce the copper fowling by coating the
bullets after loading with lubricant.

I use a mix of JPW, Liquid Alox, and Mineral Spirits
heavy on the JPW that dries as a hard varnish like
coating similar to the coating that waxed paper has.
I load the ammo and then dip the finished cartridges
nose first into a warmed up cup of my brew up to the
case mouth and give them a moment for any excess to
drip down off the bullet tips and start to "set up"
before flipping them back upright and standing them up
to fully dry. Works for me, I do it with almost all
of my copper solid loads that are pure copper and not
guilding metal and for certain guns in certain
situations also do it with Hornady bullets and
occasionally even some other brands.

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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 28 2018 at 9:34pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Dr. Evil gets shot once a week. Maybe every other week.
About 15 to 20 rounds. 30 rounds tops. Slow, deliberate
fire. No "yank the trigger as fast as ya can" stuff.
Threw Drunk Neighbor off my range for doing that with his
badly abused Ranch Rifle last year and he shoots on his
range now. I won't permit such stupidity on my range.
Period. There's always 2 or so minutes between shots
here.

Thus I have no fear of burning out my barrel or causing
premature wear of the weapon. But I gotta admit I thought
I was getting copper from the bore as it was showing
clean with my own cleaner. However, that was not the
case. Not shooting a lot of copper jacketed stuff I
simply became lax in my cleaning. That one's on me!


In hindsight, the mass amount or copper can be attributed
to the lack of its removal over several months. Still the
Hornady bullets contributed to the deposits none the
less. All in all I'm neither displeased nor unhappy with
the performance of the Hornady bullets. Just gotta clean
better and more carefully. Lessons learned.

Edited by Old Ranger on June 29 2018 at 5:33am


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LAH
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Posted: June 29 2018 at 3:44pm | IP Logged Quote LAH

I shoot a bunch of Hornady in my 223. This rifle has a
very rough bore. I simply wipe the bore every 100
rounds or so. Yes it is fouled badly but shoots very
well. Did I mention the bore is very rough? I cleaned
this rifle once of all fouling & my gunsmith showed the
bore through his Hawkeye Scope. Did I mention the bore
is very rough?

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Tom W.
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Posted: June 29 2018 at 7:49pm | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

I have a fondness for Sierra GameKings for hunting in my
30-06 A.I., Cast in everything else.

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Old Ranger
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Posted: July 03 2018 at 6:35am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

A little off rifles, but not the primary topic.
Last night I sat down with my beloved Bounty Hunter
.44Mag SAA. Unloaded it and with a LED flashlight looked
at the bore from an angle. Sure enough, copper!
Having shot some full house JHP and lots of Berry's
Bullets copper plated 240 FP rounds its not surprising.

As with Dr. Evil, it had been cleaned with my own blend
of cleaner that grabs carbon off bores and parts like
mad. It has little effect upon copper however.
So about a years worth of copper needed to go. Hoppe's #9
for a bit, then Montana Extreme Bore Polish for massive
removal. Finished up with some Lucas Gun Oil and the
weapon is clean as it should be. I'm sure when it gets
shot again and cleaned with good 'ole #9 regularly,the
copper fouling will be kept at bay.

My reasoning behind this cleaning to spotless stems from
my early days with BP weapons and cartridges along with
surplus ammo in '06 in my hunting on the rez. Corrosive
elements deluxe and extreme cleaning was a must. Forther,
today metal fouling covers powder fouling and carbon
embedded in the bore. Unless the metal fouling is removed
it continues to harbour dirt and filth in the bore.
Combined with a humid atmosphere that allows moisture
into the bore. Followed by rust and corrosion. You can
see why I'm so fanatical about cleaning.
I'm a poor man. I cannot just buy guns whenever I feel
like it and if one rusts up I can't just go buy another.
So I take very good care of my things. And like in the
movie The Sackets, when Glen Ford turned to drink and let
himself go. He was told by the youngest Sacket he was a
mess. Ford's response " Yes, but my gun is clean. And
that's what counts."

Ya know, I might just take a closer peek in the 45...

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LAH
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Posted: July 03 2018 at 7:15am | IP Logged Quote LAH

Quote:
Unless the metal fouling is removed
it continues to harbour dirt and filth in the bore.
Combined with a humid atmosphere that allows moisture
into the bore. Followed by rust and corrosion. You can
see why I'm so fanatical about cleaning.


You are correct. Stuff goes on under that fouling.

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 07 2018 at 1:35pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Getting the copper fowling out of the barrel can be a real chore.

Another reason why for most shooting cast bullets are a better option.

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LAH
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Posted: July 09 2018 at 12:21pm | IP Logged Quote LAH

I use Bor-Tech for copper. Works great.

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Old Ranger
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Posted: July 09 2018 at 6:38pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

.224" 55gr at 2900fps to 3150fps..... Um.....
Cast bullets are not an option here.

Never tried Bore-Tech.

I have a good amount of Barnes CR-10 copper remover. It
does get copper for sure. However, it is boo-coo
AGGRESSIVE! Actually starts in on my brass cleaning jags.
Starts eating them up in fact!

Shot Dr. Evil yesterday with some of those green tipped
G.I. rounds. Hot little buggers. But since I started with
a clean bore Hoppe's #9 did the trick. Used the small
Otis cable system and the 2" round patches basically
designed for .223/5.56mm cleaning. Wow! Great as usual.
Faster than using the larger cable and the 3" round
patches. Getting 6 passes with one patch is smart and
economical. And they dig in with just enough "tight" to
pull crap from the grooves but not be a bear to pull
through. Just right. Getting the Otis Tactical
cleaning kit some years back has really paid off in its
use. I clean everything from .22 pistol to my 12ga pump
shotgun. All with the same kit that fits in the palm of
my hand. Kinda cute.

Edit: Come to think about it I must be a real sick
bastard as I actually enjoy cleaning weapons!
Everyone else I know considers it a pain in the ass!

Edited by Old Ranger on July 09 2018 at 6:47pm


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M700
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Posted: July 09 2018 at 7:53pm | IP Logged Quote M700

With the aggressive brass solvents, I make sure to use nylon bristle cleaning brushes. Seems to work out better.

The jags don't get used enough to seem to matter. I wrap 'em in cotton patches and use them to clean out whatever the nylon bristle brushes didn't get.

Yo Ranger, I like cleaning my firearms too.

Makes me feel like I'm doing a good job of maintaining them. Each of my rifles, shotguns and handguns is going to be passed on to my sons. I want the guns in good shape. :)

Guy
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richhodg66
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Posted: July 09 2018 at 8:00pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

John Van Gelder wrote:
Getting the copper fowling out of the barrel can be a real chore.

Another reason why for most shooting cast bullets are a better option.



I'm in this camp. Been shooting my .223s a bit lately and it dawned on me that it has been a very long time since I shot a jacketed bullet in anything. Ash and burnt lube comes out a lot easier than copper.

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 10 2018 at 5:02am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Been shooting lots of high end cast bullets in the .222, for quite a few years, clean up is pretty easy.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: July 10 2018 at 6:32am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Gas operated semiautomatic doesn't work well with cast.
Severe blockage of gas tube and port. Like I said cast is
not an option.

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LAH
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Posted: July 10 2018 at 6:50am | IP Logged Quote LAH

Old Ranger wrote:

Never tried Bore-Tech.

I have a good amount of Barnes CR-10 copper remover. It
does get copper for sure. However, it is boo-coo
AGGRESSIVE! Actually starts in on my brass cleaning jags.
Starts eating them up in fact!


I'm with you on this. The Bore Tech Eliminator is hard on
things also. I normally spray the brush & jag with a
cleaning & through them in hot soapy water after use.

I noticed at the 1000 yard IBS matches I shot in most of
the shooters were using this product & since a bunch of
it was in one of my prize packages I started using it
also. Don't claim it better than anything else but I do
know it works, affirmed by a Hawkeye Borescope.

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