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LAH
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Posted: June 25 2018 at 8:49am | IP Logged Quote LAH

I'm a sixgun guy. I like double action revolers better
than single action revolvers for tack driving & general
use.

I have nothing against the striker fire system. I use 2
S&W M&P handguns & have no fault with those two. I even
use a Ruger LCP [DA] for deep carry.

The DA/SA Auto system is something I'd like to hear you
guys voice your opinion on. I chose the CZ 75 to
explore this system & it's the first DA/SA Auto I've
owned.

I like the DA first shot & have no problem with the SA
second shot. I also like being able to manually cock
the hammer for the first shot at a ground hog or crow.

The DA/SA platform I'm using can also be carried cocked
& locked. If I'm hindered from lowering the hammer
after a shot simply engaging the thumb safety renders
the pistol safe to holster or lay down if nessacary.

I'm not trying to beat the drum for the DA/SA platform
but to simply give an assessment after shooting the CZ
75 [PreB] for a couple years.

So you guys chime in on this platform. You can discuss
a certain pistol if you like but the operating system
[DA/SA] is more the opinion I'm looking for.

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REM1875
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Posted: June 25 2018 at 10:32am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Range time and dry firing have shown me I have a tendency
to jerk more in double action and from my experience I am
not alone in doing that.....

Edited by REM1875 on June 25 2018 at 10:12pm
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mikld
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Posted: June 25 2018 at 11:00am | IP Logged Quote mikld

I'm down to two, hammer fired, DA/SA guns and I too
like the system. I have a Ruger P90 45 ACP, which is a
big gun, too big for concealed carry, but quick from
the holster and first round DA is no problem for me to
put on target. My other is a "Walther clone" Iver
Johnson 25 ACP which, for such a diminutive round is
fairly easy to shoot DA first shot, SA thereafter...

I held off getting striker fired guns until I found a
deal too good to pass up and it's a plastic, striker
fired 9mm, an FMK. I had a lot of trouble getting used
to the long, stiff trigger pull and still am not really
fond of it, but I don't seem to notice much when
getting off "quick shots". I picked up a Ruger LC9S and
it's much better and has a good place in my arsenal,
but nuttin' can replace my 1911s...

Edited by mikld on June 25 2018 at 11:02am


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turbo1889
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Posted: June 25 2018 at 11:57am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

The only gun I have fired in a true high
stress self defense situation was a DAO
pocket auto with a heavy trigger. I do
not remember anything about how the
trigger felt when firing. All I remember
is lining up my shots appropriately and
firing. I do remember seeing the sights
(such as they are on that gun, an I.O.
Hellcat 380 specifically).

Now when hunting where it's not a
defensive situation but there is this
thing called "buck fever" and although I
rarely hunt "bucks" I'm primarily a meat
hunter but when you are stalking down a
nice fat doe that should net out at over
70-lbs of meat in the freezer there is
still an adrenaline rush. The times where
I have remembered how the trigger "felt"
have been the rare exception.
Interestingly those shots where I remember
how the trigger felt have been either my
best shots or my worst shots. Bad shots
my head and heart were pounding and it was
like "@#$+8* is this trigger ever going to
break?" as I'm trying to stay calm and
squeeze off a good stable shot. The times
they were my best shots is when "time
slowed down".

These "hunting shots" have been made with
hammer fired SA, hammer fired DA, hammer
fired DAO, Striker DAO, and Striker fired
SA. A mix of both autos and revolvers.
The only thing I haven't fired is a DA
striker (when I say DA, I mean can be
fired both SA and DA as apposed to DAO
where it can be fired DA only). Now I
haven't sank a hunting shot on a live
animal with a hammer fired DA auto only
just some range time with a 1911 style gun
where with the hammer down first shot
would be DA as apposed to normal 1911
where its SA and with the hammer down you
have to cock it with your thumb before
making the first shot.

Long story short, from my personal
experience, so long as you actually have
trained with the weapon as far as a gun
that is DA on the first shot but SA on
follow up shots (The situation I believe
you are specifically asking about) I see
no reason why this should cause any
inherent problems with shooter accuracy or
handling over a SA or DAO alternative
trigger setup.

The main question is whether or not the
engineering, manufacturing, and metallurgy
is of sufficient quality in the trigger
system to give a good DA trigger that
stand the test of time in real life
conditions as apposed to the simpler SA
and DOA trigger systems which do not
require the same level of quality in those
three areas to successfully accomplish the
ultimate end goal.

In the case of revolvers DA is generally
been figured out and up to snuff so long
as you avoid the lemons and those lemons
aren't a result of the technology to "get
it right" not being fully understood and
developed but rather cases of cost
cutting, carelessness, slopyness, or
incompetence.

In the case of autos though it's a
different story, DA really hasn't been
totally boiled down and totally figured
out yet at least not like it has with
revolvers especially with DA striker fired
setups that are true DA with a decocker
and are packed with the striker uncocked.

What I'm saying is that If and
When
truely successful good DA
trigger technology for autos is fully
figured out and boiled down to proven
designs that are commonplace it will be a
good thing, and I see no issues with the
shooter having difficulty in application.

It's a problem of successfully
implimentation of the technology of good
DA triggers for auto pistols such that
they are just as good as revolver DA
triggers. It's not an issue of the
shooter applying an auto equipped with
such a trigger and handling a DA first
shot trigger pull and SA trigger pull on
follow up shots.

Because as I said when you have a live
critter you are firing on you rarely feel
the trigger anyway and your training and
practice just kicks in. And if you do
feel the trigger and you don't also
experience the sensation of "time slowing
down" then you are having problems with
the shot that don't have anything to do
with the trigger itself.

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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 25 2018 at 12:14pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Raised on sixguns and the 1911A1. Carried and engaged
soldiers and armed felons that wanted me dead and did
their best to follow through. I'm still here. 'Nuff said
there I suppose.....

In the late 90's the P.D. went DA autoloader. I was
forced to carry a Baretta 92F in 9mm. Rotten, worthless,
piece of junk. Officers all through the PD went from
proficient to pitiful overnight on the range AND the
street. I felt completely unarmed with it. Since we were
allowed backups in 9mm, I carried a Belgian made Browning
Silver Chrome Hi Power shoved into my belt. I never drew
the Baretta ever. If it looked like things were getting
heated I'd pull the Hi Power. In the double mag pouch on
my duty belt were mags for the Browning. A Lt. once
spotted the Browning and told me to remove it. I smiled
and said maybe he should do it. Aware he'd loose, my
Browning stayed where it was.....

Nope, I despise DA autos. DA/SA autos suck too in my
book. I feel better armed with an 1851 Colt Navy than a
self-cocking bottom feeding hybrid excuse of a gun. And
that's my thoughts and opinions on the matter. And I even
held back a little in this too.

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RT58
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Posted: June 25 2018 at 2:54pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

The first auto pistol I owned was a S&W 59. After shooting revolvers it took me awhile to learn that the trigger wasn't broken after the first shot, it was just made that way.

I prefer a good quality single action auto for carry, target or plinking. I can deal with a good quality DA/SA auto for carry, target or plinking too, if they have a smooth action and light, comfortable first shot capability. DAO...I have one, and only one, I'm not impressed and don't care what the quality is, they are a poor excuse for a pistol.

I don't get what the attraction is supposed to be for the DA/SA autos, but apparently they have enough to keep making them. I have several and they're not too bad, except for the Makarov which has a heavy, creepy DA trigger pull. I do have a couple Taurus "PT"'s, the Beretta 92 look alikes. Their materials are not the highest quality but they are well made and do have the capability to be carried SA-cocked and locked.

I did see a post in a different thread recently about the time it takes to transition the trigger finger from Da to SA in a shootout. Does anyone really practice that?
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REM1875
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Posted: June 25 2018 at 3:40pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

When they put me on the range with my newly issued M-9 and
wanted us to fire the first round double action I found
somehow the hammer was pulled back before I fired and it
was pure instinct ---no thought required .... ever damned
time I went to the range with it ....

Old dog sometimes has trouble with new tricks
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REM1875
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Posted: June 25 2018 at 3:44pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Old Ranger wrote:
Raised on sixguns and the 1911A1.

..........................................

Nope, I despise DA autos. DA/SA autos suck too in my
book. I feel better armed with an 1851 Colt Navy than a
self-cocking bottom feeding hybrid excuse of a gun. And
that's my thoughts and opinions on the matter. And I even
held back a little in this too.


Well said Wade.

Although I prefer the 1858 Remington ...of course

Edited by REM1875 on June 25 2018 at 3:46pm
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RECURVE
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Posted: June 25 2018 at 4:15pm | IP Logged Quote RECURVE

I'm 72 have carried a long time I'm glad I've never had
to pull my weapon but one thing for sure I want it to
work I always carry revolver feel more secure. Its what
you're comfortable with I guess.
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doghawg
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Posted: June 25 2018 at 5:54pm | IP Logged Quote doghawg

I bought my first ever DA/SA decocker in June 2017 and sold it in August 2017 and don't foresee ever getting another one. It was a Magnum Research Baby Eagle 9mm which had a long creepy 10 lb. DA pull and a 5 lb. SA pull. I ran about 600 rounds through it and decided I really despised the thing. I tried some rapid shooting drills with DA first and then SA following...NOT good.
Make mine a 1911 or a revolver. My thinking is that in a tense situation my foggy old brain has enough things to sort out without having to remember how the gun operates! With a 1911 it's all muscle memory and habit from many thousands of rounds. If I carried a DA/SA I'd probably try to sweep the safety off and end up decocking the stinking thing instead!
Nope....too old to change.

Randy

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LAH
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Posted: June 25 2018 at 7:38pm | IP Logged Quote LAH

RT58 wrote:
Does anyone really practice that?


I did. After a month or so I found it not a problem. I
wore the pistol in my belt slide round the house &
practiced the DA first pull from the slide. Didn't take
any longer to learn than with a sixgun.

Next outside I fired the 2 shot routine & slowly
learned the transition from DA to SA. Humans are very
adaptable.

Again I'm not trying to convince anyone just saying
what happened after a couple years
shooting/carrying/playing with this thing.

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turbo1889
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Posted: June 26 2018 at 1:45am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Although I have never seen it implemented in a modern
gun much less a modern auto there was a 4-shot DOA
pepper box in 22-rimfire that I once shot that had one
of the most clever solutions I have ever seen. The
trigger was a two finger trigger, you could pull the
trigger with both the trigger finger and middle finger
but only the trigger finger would actually drop the
internal hammer at the end of pull. So if you needed
to make a quick point blank shove the gun up against
them and pull shot you just yanked the trigger. But
for an aimed shot you pulled hard with your middle
finger which is the strongest finger not including the
thumb to fully cock the internal hammer and hold it
cocked and then you used your trigger finger to "touch
off" the shot with a very light crisp break. A very
good system.

I would think that if the same system were applied to
the various micro-pocket sized 380 guns out there it
could make for a significant improvement in them as
far as being able to shoot them much more accurately
with greater ease while still maintaining the safety
factor of a long heavy DOA trigger pull that is
usually the only safety on those guns.

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RT58
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Posted: June 26 2018 at 2:35pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

LAH, Thanks, I was never formally "trained" on any auto and thought it sounded a little odd that people would try to reposition their finger between the first and second shots. Live and learn.

By the way, I do have a second DAO pistol, a NAA Guardian. It doesn't get shot either.
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Tom W.
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Posted: June 26 2018 at 2:45pm | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

I carried a Colt GM fo 40 years, in addition to a few revolvers in various
calibers for hunting, mostly. I got bit by the Glock bug a while back, got
a model 30, a model 17 and 19, and a Ruger Lc9s Pro. I still have the
Ruger, and recently got a CZ 75 SP-01. The DA/ SA suits me fine, as I
mostly carry it in condition 1 anyway. I never could warm up to the
striker fired pistols except for the Ruger.
That being said, the CZ is new to me, and still in like new condition, not
" broken in" yet. I haven't fired very many boxes of shells through it, but
enough to know that it likes the .357 diameter bullets that I cast, rather
than the .358 sized bullets.
I treat the CZ as if it were a SA pistol due to my neuropathy. It makes
feeling things almost impossible. I can still shoot, it just feels like my
fingers are numb or asleep. That makes the exposed hammer a
blessing. The trigger pull is so much lighter in SA mode.

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REM1875
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Posted: June 26 2018 at 5:13pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Tom
That neuropathy can be a bitch .......glad you are still
shooting... so far mine in my hands is not that bad ....
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Tom W.
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Posted: June 26 2018 at 7:36pm | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

I have to wear hard sole shoes outside and flip flops at
the very least. Barefoot, even on a rug, feels like I'm
walking on large sharp gravel. Gabapentin makes me loopy,
so I'll wait until I'm on my very last legs before I take
any more of it. I can barely walk using that stuff, let
alone drive or shoot. Cancer Sucks, and the treatment
isn't much better, but at least I'm still alive.

Which is why the CZ is a good choice. I would have bought
the CZ-97, but they are more scarce than lizard spit.


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STCM(SW)
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Posted: June 26 2018 at 7:56pm | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

The only DA semiauto I have is a PPK clone.
I can shoot it OK but much prefer a S&W revolver.
A SA 1911 is my best choice as that it what I was trained
with way back when.

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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 27 2018 at 8:39am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Let's face it. The DA autoloader is a solution to a
nonexistent problem. Some folks were wetting their pants
in fear of selfinflicted wounds from an "accidental
discharge" from the conventional autoloader. Gee, for
ages single action revolvers weren't an issue. Everyone
knew how to handle 'em. Same with autoloaders. But to be
fair preying upon a bunch of scared folks makes an easy
market to sell them something that they think they
"need". Cleverly done and the pistol world is flooded
with a multitude of "solutions" with no end in sight. For
every noob I see with a DA autoloader or a half plastic
9mm tinkertoy, I just pat my 1911A1 and say to it "It's
ok Betsy, they think they know what's best. Sad they're
so I'll informed.

Just my opinion boys. Throw all the rocks ya want. I got
"Cyber Armour"! and a single action autoloader to keep me
company. Me and Betsy are just fine.

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LAH
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Posted: June 27 2018 at 8:56pm | IP Logged Quote LAH

I enjoy reading all the thoughts on this platform. I first
read about these pistols from Major George C. Nonte, Jr.
He wrote for a few magazines in the 70s. He was an ex Army
Ordnance Corps officer. His autographed books he gave Lee
Jurras are now mine signed over to me by Mr. Jurras. All
are good reads.

His pistol of choice was the S&W Model 39. He encouraged
us to try one. I remember Bill Jordan saying though he
carried a sixgun he had nothing against a Model 59 as a
back up/reload.

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RT58
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Posted: June 28 2018 at 8:49am | IP Logged Quote RT58

We all have our favorites, me especially, but I try to keep up with what ever is floating around because as the saying goes, "feces happens"...in so many words. Some are works of art, some are pieces of garbage, but hopefully any of them will go bang if you really need them, but it helps to understand how they work if that feces falls on you.
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