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Paul B.
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Posted: June 28 2018 at 1:17pm | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

I remember the S&W M39. Always wanted one but like the M29, pure
unobtanium. I think it was GUNS magazine that ran an article on a
custom job on an M39. IIRC, the guy's name was Paris Theodore and
his creation which he called the ASP was beautiful. I'm not much of a
fan of DA/SA semis but S&W did bring one out that I like, the 6906.
Looks like the M59, 39 and ASP got together and combined the best
of each. Has a spurless hammer ala ASP, about the size of the M39
with a fat enough grip for a 12 rounds mag and conceals fairly well.
Good trigger on it as well. As the "6" in the title says, it's stainless.

As far as 1911's go, I had one of more since I was 16. By age 18 I was
carrying it concealed in San Francisco, always praying I wouldn't get
caught. I didn't. I had a Ruger P-85 9MM but gave it to my daughter.
She wanted a gun, had to be a 9 mm semi and of the three I had, that
bulky Ruger was the only one she could work the slide on. The 6906
and Taurus PT-99 were just a bit too stiff for her to handle.

The only other DA/SA gun I have is a SIG/Sauer P-220 in .45 ACP. Nice
gun if you have hands the size of King Kong. Why such a large grip
frame for a 7+1 shot .45 ACP? The gun has no safety. reach on the
trigger is difficult for someone with small hands but it is one of the
most accurate .45's I've ever shot. I have a custom htbrid 1911, a colt
Gold Cup slide on a Caspian frame made up for target shooting. Very
accurate. The SIG 220 will shoot right alongside that 1911 all day long.
Don't worry about retrieving your brass from the SIG220. It kicks brass
even from lighter target loads off into the next county. Seriously brass
is usually 40 to 50 feet away and is mostly lost. (Other shooter
grabbing while you're shooting. GRRRR!) When I do shoot it, I use
loads with brass I'll never load again as it old and beat.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: June 29 2018 at 5:31am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Jeff Cooper was a fan of the CZ 75, I have a CZ and a clone of the CZ 75. Both good shooters.

The DA/SA design is very safe, any gun/trigger system can be used successfully if you are willing to invest the time to practice.

As far as a revolver being more reliable than an auto that is a myth, most jams with an auto can be cleared by hand in seconds, jam up a revolver and it is a brick. No military carries revolvers, and you will not find many police agencies that allow their officers to carry them.

Autos can me more accurate as well, the folks at Wilson will not let one of their guns out of the shop until it will print 1/2" groups at 50 yards.

I never owned a Beretta 92, but my friend in BC who shoots IDPA, and probably shoots more in a month than anyone here does in a year, has nothing but good to say about the 92.

Any modern hand gun will shoot better than the operator. Sometimes it just takes finding the right load,and learning the trigger.

I started carrying a hand gun when I was 14, that was 60 years ago, I have shot a little bit of everything, and taught a lot of people how to shoot.

Some of us have more talent than others, my youngest son is an example, I started his training when he was four. He is nearly 40 now, and does not shoot very often, but when he does he shoots very well. The rest of us need to practice often..!





Edited by John Van Gelder on June 29 2018 at 5:32am
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dahlin
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Posted: June 29 2018 at 5:56am | IP Logged Quote dahlin

John just do what I do smile and think what fool and go doing what works for you. enjoy what you like to shoot and be happy. Randy
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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 29 2018 at 7:05am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Reckon I'd better get rid of my sixguns fast. Ain't never
had one jamb up on me other than when a busted cap fell
into a Remington Army. Yeah, I'd better get rid of em now
as they could turn on me at any time.


Disclaimer to avoid confusion:

The above post was fully intended to be 100% humor. No
genuine affront against any firearm. In today's volatile
political atmosphere reactions to anything said outside
of a common greeting often promote rallies, marches, sit-
ins, and protests which can erupt without notice.
I don't want to see protesters outside my favourite
burger place protesting me.

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LAH
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Posted: June 29 2018 at 7:09am | IP Logged Quote LAH

RT58 wrote:
LAH, Thanks, I was never formally
"trained" on any auto and thought it sounded a little
odd that people would try to reposition their finger
between the first and second shots. Live and
learn


I was never trained on any handgun either. I have read
a bunch on various operating systems. One of the
greatest complaints of this system is the transition
from the DA first shot to the SA second shot. This is a
legit concern.

The other concern is lowering the hammer if there is no
hammer drop. I practice both these things knowing they
must be learned if this platform is to be used.

Without formal training I've had to read & do hands on
for myself. Thus I purchased this CZ to see if it would
appeal to me.


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RT58
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Posted: June 29 2018 at 11:40am | IP Logged Quote RT58

The most common "jam" I've seen with a S&W revolver is the ejector rod loosening and preventing the cylinder from opening. All you had to do was grip the rod and pull the trigger a few times to tighten it back up, which was easier to perform without a shroud. I've never seen any instructor mention this, and I've never seen an officer perform it.

I also saw a Dan Wesson lock up due to a kernel of burned powder getting under the extractor star.

The biggest problem I've ever seen with any auto was lazy cops that wouldn't clean their weapons, which leads to failure to feed and failure to extract or eject issues. And regardless of how much officers had been trained they mostly just stopped and stared at their handguns, like that was going to fix them.

In my area, large departments do not authorize revolvers because they issue certain weapons, and any they don't issue, revolver or auto, are not permitted. Smaller departments that require the officers to provide their own handguns usually have a list of permissible firearms and usually include several makes of revolvers.

Since gun writers of long ago realized the high capacity autos gave them an edge in their gun games, they convinced police agencies and officers it would do the same for them in actual gun fights. And even before that the writers realized a larger caliber bullet gave them an edge by possibly cutting a score ring thus giving them a higher score to beat their opponent and convinced the police it would do the same for them.

But us "gun guys" know just how realistic those gun games are, don't we?
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LAH
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Posted: June 29 2018 at 1:08pm | IP Logged Quote LAH

Old Ranger wrote:
Reckon I'd better get rid of my
sixguns fast. Ain't never
had one jamb up on me other than when a busted cap fell
into a Remington Army. Yeah, I'd better get rid of em
now
as they could turn on me at any time.



Disclaimer to avoid confusion:

The above post was fully intended to be 100% humor. No
genuine affront against any firearm. In today's
volatile
political atmosphere reactions to anything said outside
of a common greeting often promote rallies, marches,
sit-
ins, and protests which can erupt without notice.
I don't want to see protesters outside my favourite
burger place protesting me.


But I want to come & protest in front of your house &
where you eat & shop & go to Church. But being a
hillbilly you'll have to wait till it cools off.

Edited by LAH on June 29 2018 at 1:11pm


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Rex
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Posted: June 29 2018 at 3:34pm | IP Logged Quote Rex

I'd like to have a sit-in....next to his coffee pot.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: June 29 2018 at 6:51pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Got special dark blend. Tasty.
But no DA autoloaders abouts.

Edit: almost forgot. $193.24 to go next month and I'll
get my M28 out of layaway. Will have taken 4 months but
it'll be worth it. I'm patient..

Edited by Old Ranger on June 29 2018 at 6:55pm


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Tom W.
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Posted: June 29 2018 at 7:45pm | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

Old Ranger wrote:
Let's face it. The DA autoloader is a
solution to a
nonexistent problem. Some folks were wetting their pants
in fear of selfinflicted wounds from an "accidental
discharge" from the conventional autoloader. Gee, for
ages single action revolvers weren't an issue. Everyone
knew how to handle 'em. Same with autoloaders. But to be
fair preying upon a bunch of scared folks makes an easy
market to sell them something that they think they
"need". Cleverly done and the pistol world is flooded
with a multitude of "solutions" with no end in sight. For
every noob I see with a DA autoloader or a half plastic
9mm tinkertoy, I just pat my 1911A1 and say to it "It's
ok Betsy, they think they know what's best. Sad they're
so I'll informed.

Just my opinion boys. Throw all the rocks ya want. I got
"Cyber Armour"! and a single action autoloader to keep me
company. Me and Betsy are just fine.



I dunno about a "nonexistent problem",Unless I'm not
understanding well. By DA I hope to think of striker fired
pistols, rather than DA/SA pistols. I only have one
striker fired pistol that I like, the rest got sold and
traded until I ended up with the CZ... and I shoot it SA.
But it does have the ability to start DA. Kinda like
finding an extra M&M in the bag, just a nicety. That being
said i really like a .45 cal 1911 and never thought in all
my years that I'd ever own a 9 mm, let alone several. I
was one of those that read Guns & Ammo and who knows how
many other gun magazines since I was old enough to read,
and the .45 was King. When I turned 21 I had a Colt GM
series 70 on my side wherever I went. I do believe that I
wore it out......And I foolishly believed a lot of the
stuff that I read. Now that I'm a LOT of years older and
hope a bit smarter (or at least less gullible) I've found
that not everything that I read was gospel, a lot was
opinion. Old age does things to people, some good things,
some not so good. So now the 9 mm seems to be enough to
carry. I'll still hunt ( if I go again) with my Super
Redhawk .44 Remmag, and my Ruger #1B that I had
rechambered to 30-06 A.I.

Now, if I misunderstood, well, that's the chemicals the
Doctor prescribed....   

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 01 2018 at 6:52am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Tom

I still have a series 70 Colt, that I bought in the summer of 1970. I have taken a little of everything with that gun. 6 grn of Unique and a 240 grn SWC. That load is pretty close to the standard .45 Colt loading.

It seems like some of the folks must have not gotten the "memo", the Army quit carrying revolvers a 100+ years ago. And not because the revolvers were more reliable.

Paul B

If your Sig is throwing the brass that far(50 feet seems a bit much) then your recoil spring is in great need of replacement. 8-12' is optimum. I have tuned my 9mm plinking loads, so they fall within 3' of me, easy to find..

For a very long time I told myself that it would e a cold day on Venus (average surface temp. 600F),before I ever owned a 9mm, and a cold cay on the Sun before I had a "plastic" gun.

Times change, the most popular/reliable handgun on the planet is the Glock 17/19. The count was just over 5 million in circulation back in 2007.

Always willing to try different stuff, I run Linux on all of my computers. I finally broke down and bought a polymer frame, striker fired, 9mm. Bad move, the first one was like that first potato chip, cant have just one.

There was a learning curve with the reloads, once sorted out, the 9 has been a lot of fun to load for and shoot.

I can shoot mine for less than the cost of .22 ammunition, most 9s hold more than the average .22 autoloader, and are not much harder to shoot.

There are a lot of variations on the DA/SA guns, some with decockers are so safe that they are a little confusing.

For us old folks that grew up with the 1911 "cocked and locked", the basic DA/SA guns are a good choice, a little practice at easing the hammer down, may be a good choice, simpler is better..

These days a fair number of folks favor "appendix" carry, a real threat to vital parts with something with no appreciable safety.       
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RT58
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Posted: July 01 2018 at 9:58am | IP Logged Quote RT58

John, I seem to recall guys buying Colt GM's in the late 70's and 80's that wouldn't function new, and even some Python's too.

The military services did have revolvers later than 100 years ago. Just because they adopted something else didn't mean they didn't use the weapons they had in reserve. When they went to the Beretta's the rumor started that Colt would go out of business, then the fact came out that the military hadn't bought them since 1949 as they had plenty. Also, the military has a history of making some really poor choices, or making good choices then messing things up to save money at the cost of unnecessary lives lost. One advantage the 1911 had was that it was very reliable, but that wasn't until after they eased the specs to make it able to fire full of mud, which hurt accuracy in return.

"Times change, the most popular/reliable handgun on the planet is the Glock 17/19. The count was just over 5 million in circulation back in 2007."
Just because a firearm is the most popular doesn't mean it's the most reliable or the best. Besides the media telling everyone they can defeat metal detectors, they are also claimed to be easier to learn how to use, which they are, sort of. They also have their own issues that seem to be often overlooked. I do admit though, they are very accurate. But then so is my 9mm Jennings M59, and it is striker fired too, but it doesn't have the safety in the trigger so it's not as easy to learn.


Edited by RT58 on July 01 2018 at 10:02am
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Old Ranger
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Posted: July 01 2018 at 11:32am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

I recall dozens of rotocraft and fixed wing army pilots
carrying S&W .38 revolvers in S.E. Asia. And the Air
Force officers and all the Security Police troops carried
S&W Mod 14 and Ruger Security Six revolvers up into the
1980's.

*Just keeping the facts straight. *

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LAH
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Posted: July 01 2018 at 12:19pm | IP Logged Quote LAH

A friend who served as an Air Force MP carried a
revolver into the early 70s.

And for the record my MP S&W autos have been without a
hitch after a couple thousand rounds.

As to the 1911 platform I missed all that I guess by
insisting in my youth only sixguns were worth spending
time with. Missed a lot by not having a mentor.

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 02 2018 at 5:34am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

None of the folks that were actually in combat carried revolvers, MP,AP, carried but seldom used. Pilots had pistols so they could shoot small game or themselves.

There were instances during WW II, when there were not enough 1911s to go around that they issued revolvers. The exception to the rule.

The Europeans were carrying smokeless powder cartridge semi autos, back when we were still stuffing black powder in cartridges.

Over time there have been test run on different action designs, one I recall back in the 80s, was done by an independent testing facility, not affiliated with any of the fire arms manufacturers.

They tested the most prevalent commercial makes of hand guns. They fired the guns, without cleaning until they malfunctioned. The revolvers failed significantly sooner than the autos. The gun that completed the entire testing procedure was the 1911.

Sooner or later everything fails, revolvers are just fussier than autos. I shot competition when I was a policeman, and by the end of a match,my revolver was starting to foul to the point that it took more effort to turn the cylinder. With prolonged use, revolvers have timing issues. A little built up powder residue under the extractor will jam the cylinder.

Chuck Taylor, has a Glock 17 that he has put 300,000+ rounds through. When he first got the gun he fired 10,000 rounds without cleaning.

I am not a fan of the Glock, they were a real innovation back in 1980, but have not changed appreciably since. There are many current variations on that theme, that are more durable. And easier to work on if the need arises.

Glocks are prone to slide cracking at the ejection port, the retainer for the recoil spring on the slide is quite fragile, the frame rail tabs that are molded into the grip frame will break off over time. I would add, that the majority of the failures I mentioned were on guns that had 100,000+ round counts.

The above issues have been addressed by many of the other big gun makers. The "chassis" guns are a real improvement, with the entire fire control system in a single module.

All probably moot, you can carry a fire arm your entire life and never have to fire a shot in "anger", so you will never know if you choice of weapon was the right one or not.   










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turbo1889
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Posted: July 02 2018 at 6:20am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

John Van Gelder wrote:
. . . I am not a
fan of the Glock, . . .


Agree with you on that one.

#1 ~ Grip angle is wrong for me, under
stress drills (long story not going to
take this thread off track with it) with a
Glock I tend to revert to my standard hold
based off of a smaller grip angle and end
up shooting just over the target, mainly
due to my follow through muscle memory
rather then reverting to point shooting
rather then using the sights properly.

#2 ~ I am not comfortable with the Glock
setup, if a gun has no safety and the
trigger is the only safety it should be a
8-to-10 lb trigger with a long but
smooth
trigger. Just like a
good DA revolver has. That is not a
description of a Glock trigger.

The only Glock I now own is a G20 with a
3-lb competition trigger. It's for
hunting and maybe bear defense if a bear
happens to come after me while I'm
hunting. Been considering upgrading to
the G40 but haven't made the plunge yet.
10mm is a sweet handgun hunting round and
Glock is what you get if you're on a
budget because they are the only
reasonably good 10mm auto at an affordable
price point.

John Van Gelder wrote:
. . . .

All probably moot, you can carry a fire
arm your entire life and never have to
fire a shot in "anger", so you will never
know if you choice of weapon was the right
one or not.


Yah, but if you ever do have to fire
defensively it kind of sucks when you find
out the hard way that your choice could
have been better. Double action trigger
wasn't the issue I had, my DAO little
pocket pistol and me worked just fine
together. The issue I had was I would
have been better off with a bigger hole
maker.

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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 03 2018 at 5:44am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

I am pretty confident, at this end of my life I will not be getting into any gun fights. But every years since I have lived up here, I have had some sort of interaction with bears, and mt. lions.

I have on a number of occasions, felt that the only option was to shoot the bear, or cat.

Those animals can be pretty resilient, I have had good success with the .45 Colt, .45ACP and .357 Mag. Standard loadings in the Colt, Upper end loads in the ACP (240 grn bullets at 900+) and only moderate loads, (170 grn 11-1200) in the .357.

None of these produced one shot instant kills, but with careful placement incapacitation was such that it was safe to get close to administer a "finisher".

There are exceptions one was a bear that I set an ambush for, one hard cast bullet from my old Series 70 Colt behind the ear and the bear was dead when he hit the ground, another was a bear hit in the neck, just below the skull, with a jacketed HP from a 4" .357, that was also dead when he hit the ground.

Last Sunday when I was out making my evening rounds of my fence line I came very close to finding out if the 9mm was adequate for bears. I have three dogs, so that makes things even more interesting. It was pretty exciting for about two minutes, seemed much longer. It came down to the point where the bear was rapidly closing in on my oldest dog, and he was of course, running to get behind me. I had the sights centered up, taking up the slack in the trigger, as the bear came to within ten yards, at that point my German Sheppard got into the fray and distracted the bear.

I have had several encounters with this same bear over the last ten days, it is distinctive in that it is a tan black bear. I do not want to shoot the bear, there have been plenty of close range opportunities, because "she" has a cub. There has been no regressive behavior, unless her "child" is threatened.

On the other hand if I see the "cow" killer, that one I will gladly "air out".

I have quite a bit of experience with bears, and caliber is not as important as placement.

There are few things in this life as exhilarating, as playing tag with a wounded bear in a vine maple thicket while trying to reload a revolver.

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John P.
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Posted: July 04 2018 at 9:21am | IP Logged Quote John P.

I carried DA/SA Auto for a long time - S&W 5906, 6906, and Beretta 92.
When shooting DA or SA, I normally have two different trigger finger
positions, using more finger or less finger on the trigger. DA is closer to
the joint while SA is more towards the pad. For DA/SA Auto I use the
same amount of finger on the trigger, but it is somewhere between my
normal DA/SA. It did take some practice, but I got used to it.

Never cared for the Beretta, but I liked the Smith and Wessons. I liked
the Sig 226 and the Sig DA/SA trigger best, but Sigs weren't an option
for me to carry. I had a Sig 220 in .45 ACP, but I traded it for a Colt
Delta Elite. I shot that Sig better than any DA/SA Auto I ever had. I was
sorry I got rid of it.

It seems that everything new is going the way of striker fired and
plastic. We went over to Glocks 12 years ago, and they seem easier for
a person with little or no shooting experience to learn.

That being said I feel that DA, SA, DA/SA Auto, or striker fired is a
personal preference based on one's training and experience. I tend to
feel comfortable with any of them provided that I practice. More
important to me is the ergonomics of the pistol- some just fit better than
others. I never cared for the Beretta, and I like the Browning Hi Power
the best for 9mm. For .45 ACP I like A Commander sized 1911 or the
Sig 220.


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RT58
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Posted: July 04 2018 at 4:40pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

If I'm shooting deliberate, sighted, SA I put the pad of my finger on the trigger.

All my gunfighting is done with the trigger finger pushed further in nearer to the joint, regardless of it's DA, SA, or a mixture of the two, or striker fired.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 13 2018 at 9:42am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

No matter what, the name of the game is controlling the trigger.
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