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RT58
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Posted: July 09 2018 at 5:02pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

Rem, thanks for the link, very informative.

Kinley, I have a feeling trying to market that idea might hit the same roadblocks as the Herters, you might do alright if you have S&W re-create the .401, only with their name on it, and work it up from there. The only problem with that would be a lot of people don't like their new and improved manufacturing processes and ideas.

It's interesting that the Herters reloading manual mentions they were working on a rimless version of the .401 for use in auto pistols. Had the revolver and auto rounds both gotten the attention they deserved Evan Whildin would probably have based the .41AE off the Herters auto round for use in the UZI as the .401AE. He also designed a necked down version of the .41AE named the 9mmAE, which would have had more success. Then the .41magnum, 10mm, .40S&W and .357Sig would have never been needed and Jeff Cooper, S&W and Sig would have been left looking for something else to invent. They say "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" and there's a lot of flattery in the ammo business, just look at all the "new" cartridges that copy other inventers ideas, and even some BP ballistics.

By the way, in spite of what many modern gun experts think, the .41Colt was not anemic. Just ask Wade and J. H. "Fitz" FitzGerald...and Elmer Keith, even though he didn't realize it.
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REM1875
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Posted: July 09 2018 at 5:36pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

KinleyWater wrote:
RT58 wrote:
richhodg66 wrote:

...So the .38-40 is basically what Kinley is wanting and
it's been around a while.


I thought he wanted a revolver that fired a rimmed
cartridge and could also fire 10mm and .40S&W cartridges
with a moon clip. The .38-40 is a bottlenecked cartridge.


Higher pressures are the indicator for "magnum"
cartridges, but that doesn't always make them better. If
you want a +V instead of a +P enlarge the case and add
more powder. Maximum chamber pressures and velocity don't
have the relationship many seem to think. If you want to
run your own test, load a .44 magnum up to maximum
pressures with Bullseye and H110 and compare their muzzle
velocities.


RT,

You hit it on the head. I was thinking along the lines
of a revolver capable of shooting both the rimmed round
and the 10mm with moon clips or the like. 1 revolver, 3
cartridges - the xxx rimmed, the 10mm auto, and the 40
S&W. I would like to think that there would be something
of a market for that sort of gun, in say a 3 or 4 inch
barrel. Sort of a 1 and done for all manner of uses from
field to nightstand.

Still, what I think would be a good idea does not
automatically equate to retail success,and a fair amount
of money would need to be sunk into R&D for both the
cartridge and the platform. That said, I might see if I
could get a custom job done on a K or N frame. Really, I
would want it on a GP100, but I think Wade would have my
hide for it.   


Since the cut down 30 rem is the parent round I did some
work with the rimmed version - the 30-30 - with 38-40
bullets in a goofed up 10 mag cylinder I had. Sadly I
never finished the project other than firing a few rounds
... showed promise ...

Edited by REM1875 on July 09 2018 at 5:39pm
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M700
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Posted: July 09 2018 at 8:04pm | IP Logged Quote M700

Old Ranger wrote:
RT58 wrote:
Wade, I'd heard of Gordon Boser's
cartridge, although very little, do you know if there
were any production guns made for it or was it all custom
order?


Herters sold a single action army revolver imported by
Sauar [spelling?] and the ammo up until the GCA of '68
that killed the mail order business and Herters with it.
There are some still around but they demand a hefty sum
to buy now.

Boser worked with the SAA framed revolver, but unlike
Keith, Boser was a genuine trained and skilled gunsmith
and not a flamboyant backwoods character with zero
training who blew up weapons. Gordon Boser worked out of
New York and was an early member of the 44
Association/Society, Can't remember. They published a
memograph [sp?] News letter to members only by mail about
every quarter.

He designed a SWC with enormous meplat having almost
straight nose with almost no taper. I have a DC Lyman
mould from the 60's [429360] for the .44Spl/Mag. Casts a
232gr bullet of remarkable accuracy and killing power.
Hits like a panzer doing 80 mph with the accuracy of a
laser. He designed another like it in .41cal and .358cal.
Both are quite rare now. I've been searching for the 38
version for 50 years with no luck.

Yup, Gordon Boser was the real deal and not a hack in a
hat. He knew what he was doing but wasn't into self
promotion thus little is ever said of him. Sad as he was
talented.


Ranger - in the world of firearms - it's not often anymore that I come across new info. THANK YOU!

Good stuff, and something we should know as firearms enthusiasts.



Guy
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STCM(SW)
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Posted: July 09 2018 at 9:17pm | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

I have a S&W M28-2 I had made in to a 38-40.
Still don't know why I did that, cost was some what more then I should have paid.
It's OK, but hey, it's only money... LOL!

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turbo1889
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Posted: July 09 2018 at 11:07pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

On this whole "401-PowerMag" idea. A
thick rimmed cartridge that has a longer
length and greater powder capacity and
possibly opperating at a higher pressure
as well then the 10mm such that a revolver
chambered for such a cartridge could also
be loaded with both 10mm and 40-S&W with
moon clips ~

Okay, sounds cool but also sounds very
similar to the 357-maximum cartridge and
the revolvers chambered for it.

There was a little problem with those
guns, that cartridge had significant
issues with gas cutting off the guns frame
in the top strap area due to the cartridge
causing vicious blowby on the cylinder
gap.

Wouldn't this "401-PowerMag" suffer from
the same potential problem. True there
has been significant improvement in
technology since then to alleviate this,
the BFR guns with their improved metalergy
and much tighter cylinder gaps and similar
developments used in guns chambered for
the new wiz-bang 460-S&W and 500-S&W
cartridges.

But still, the issue hasn't entirely gone
away. And although I love my nice little
break action single shot carbine that has
had it's chamber reamed to fire 357-max as
well as the original 357-mag and 38-spl. I
still ain't stupid enough to buy one of
the old 357-maximum revolvers still
floating around out there because many
either have enough top strap cutting that
they are already unsafe to fire with 357-
max loads or have a limited number of full
power maximum loads left before they too
become unsafe as well.

Explain to me how the "401-PowerMag" would
avoid suffering a similar fate?

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REM1875
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Posted: July 10 2018 at 5:22am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Hey Master Chief
Ah yeah the 38-40 S&W......just remember me if ever.....
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REM1875
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Posted: July 10 2018 at 5:41am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

The gas cutting on my Dan Wesson 357 MAXI will take
several life times before it becomes a problem.
As a matter of fact after it gets to a certain depth it
appears to stop or slow down immensely.
My Ruger Old Army and Dan Wesson make me think the
situations is cause with small ball powder. (F-F-F-F in
the Ruger before anyone goes crazy)
So if I get this with H-110 and 4 F powder it seems the
shape of the powder may be partially the culprit.(yes I
know ... shock .. but sometimes I use powders other than
Unique)
Closing the cylinder gap only gave me a new gas cut that
looked identical to the old gas cutting in just a few
rounds and then stopped......
Heat. force and sand pebble type powder are what i fear
are the problem.
Sadly there are not a lot of loads for 357 Maxi with
flake or grain type powders....
Course firing 125 gr bullets might also effect it ....I
don't know


Turbo
look at a few 357 Maxi revolvers when you can find them
and you see they are not nearly as bad as folks make then
out. And it will make a nice companion with that rifle
...

Edited by REM1875 on July 10 2018 at 5:42am
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KinleyWater
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Posted: July 10 2018 at 2:39pm | IP Logged Quote KinleyWater

turbo1889 wrote:


Okay, sounds cool but also sounds very
similar to the 357-maximum cartridge and
the revolvers chambered for it.

There was a little problem with those
guns, that cartridge had significant
issues with gas cutting off the guns frame
in the top strap area due to the cartridge
causing vicious blowby on the cylinder
gap.

Wouldn't this "401-PowerMag" suffer from
the same potential problem...

...Explain to me how the "401-PowerMag" would
avoid suffering a similar fate?


Beats me; maybe it would. On the other hand, you could make the same comparison to the 460 S&W mag, which also quite capably handles the 454 Casull and the 45 Colt, or the 357 mag, which can shoot both the 38 special and 9x19. I'm not a metallurgist and I don't claim to understand the dynamics of the 357 Max, for that matter, I'm simply noting that I would find a revolver that could shoot 3 power levels of .401 cartridges to be intriguing. Even more so if I could talk someone into making a nice lever gun to accompany it.

From a hand loading standpoint, there are a great many .401 projectiles on the market, and many cast moulds. Certainly there are more available than .410. I think if it could be done, it would make a remarkably flexible firearm. I also think that with the popularity of 40 S&W for defense, that it could be marketed effectively.

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BunnyKiller
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Posted: July 10 2018 at 6:12pm | IP Logged Quote BunnyKiller

awwww just go for it... get the 460XVR :)
I did and I love it :)
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REM1875
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Posted: July 11 2018 at 7:10am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Bunny Killer
It's a hell of a revolver .... 454 Casull is very
manageable, the 460 is absolutely amazing ....
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RT58
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Posted: July 11 2018 at 8:03am | IP Logged Quote RT58

turbo1889 wrote:
On this whole "401-PowerMag" idea. A
thick rimmed cartridge that has a longer
length and greater powder capacity and
possibly opperating at a higher pressure
as well then the 10mm such that a revolver
chambered for such a cartridge could also
be loaded with both 10mm and 40-S&W with
moon clips ~

Okay, sounds cool but also sounds very
similar to the 357-maximum cartridge and
the revolvers chambered for it.



Not quite Turbo, the .401 powermag wasn't a super high pressure cartridge like the .357 maxi., it was a little less powerful than the .41 magnum so flame cutting wouldn't be a problem.

Kinley's idea is actually a good one, and deals more with the availability of ammunition than with different power levels. Making .401 PM brass should be easy enough, but finding a parent case with a .1" rim might be a little iffy. The best bet would be to get Ruger to make it and then S&W would have to try to make it more "magnummy". Only trouble is when Ruger tries to create their own handgun ammo it turns out to be a bomb.

The ability to shoot several calibers from the same handguns were major selling points for the .357 and .44 magnums as it adds more versatility with little effort on their part. Handloaders don't need them, but they are becoming about as scarce as revolvers shooters.
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REM1875
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Posted: July 11 2018 at 1:56pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

The 30-30 is a rimmed version of the old 30 Remington-
parent cartridge of 10 mm and 40 S&W.
The major problem large rims and a somewhat weaker case for
a rifle than many....However for a revolver round it is not
bad.
Straight bored cylinders that require a moon clip would
also allow for the 10 Mag and the rimmed cut down 30-30 can
be any of the 10mm/40/10mm Mag length.

I been thinking of this one for the past 20 some years.....

I love multi caliber guns
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RT58
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Posted: July 11 2018 at 4:57pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

I've made full cylinder length shotshells for my .41 mags. from .30-30 brass. Also cut the last one left to make a .401 powermag case, yes, too much spare time.

The question would be if the rim was thick enough to allow for reliable primer hits. It would be easy enough for someone with a 10mm revolver to check by trimming the brass down to 10mm or .40S&W length and trying it out. I sold mine a long time ago or I'd be glad to help.
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KinleyWater
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Posted: July 11 2018 at 5:14pm | IP Logged Quote KinleyWater

RT58 wrote:


Kinley's idea is actually a good one,..


Wow. That's not something I hear every day.   


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Posted: July 22 2018 at 7:59pm | IP Logged Quote The_Shadow

For those of you interested in any and everything 10mm auto and then some stop by the 10mm-firearms.com forum where you will find a great wealth of info. If you desire and wish to join it is free to do so, we are a great group just like here on Handloads!

This is the link:http://10mm-firearms.com/index.php


While I still visit here a am very active over there as a moderator and have been documenting various ammo, especially 10mm Auto.

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RT58
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Posted: July 23 2018 at 8:28am | IP Logged Quote RT58

KinleyWater wrote:
RT58 wrote:


Kinley's idea is actually a good one,..


Wow. That's not something I hear every day.   

Even Einstein had a good idea once in a while.
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REM1875
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Posted: July 23 2018 at 3:19pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Thanks Shadow
Very Handy
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 25 2018 at 5:10am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

On gas cutting, it is pretty much inevitable, but from what I have been able to determine it gets to a point and then either quits or slows down.

There is a member over on the Cast Boolit forum, they all seem to have a problem with spelling, who has a mod 27 that he has shot something like 75k rounds through most of which were 148 grn wadcutter target loads and his top strap has some of the worst gas cutting I have seen.

Some of the old Colt revolvers had a machined cut out in the top strap, right at the cylinder barrel gap.

Several years ago I managed to put a lot of wear on a Mod 28, I sent it back to S&W, to get tuned and have the top strap welded. When it came back,I contact cemented a section of a double edged razor blade to the top strap at the gap and replaced it when it started to cut.

I noticed that S&W started doing something similar with their light frame guns.





Edited by John Van Gelder on July 25 2018 at 5:13am
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turbo1889
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Posted: July 25 2018 at 7:02am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

I wonder if one could do a tungsten
carbide insert into the base of the top
plate? Considering how much more common
it has become for mill and lathe tooling
to be made from the stuff for much more
reasonable priced nowdays it might be
economically possible, don't know how much
more resistant a tungsten carbide insert
would be then steel to gas cutting but I
think it would be worth a try maybe?

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