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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 03 2018 at 6:42am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

The .45ACP has been under loaded since its inception, the round pretty closely duplicates the performance of the .45 Schofield.

Several years ago (1988) Dean Grennell, did a lot of work with the .45ACP, to increase it's performance. As a result we have the .45 Super.

I am not sure of the time frame, but around the same period, the Canadians were looking for a way to improve the .45 ACP as a "trail" gun. Their answer was the .45-08. .308 brass cut to standard .45ACP length and the case moth reamed out to accept a .45 bullet.

In both instances, the case is heavier than the standard ACP cases, to compensate for the unsupported section of the 1911 barrel.

The Super gives and average of 300 fps over the standard loadings, and represents a significant improvement over the ballistics of the 10 mm.

The .460 Roland beats that but the conversion kits are quite a bit more complicated and expensive.

There are a number of sources for Super kits, the core of these are a barrel with complete support for the case and some heavier springs.

Starline sells .45 Super brass.

The folks at Buffalo Bore, sell Super ammunition, with bullet weights from 185 to 255.

If someone is looking for a big bore trail gun and already has a .45ACP, they can get a conversion kit for considerably less than purchasing a 10mm, with better performance, and a much wider selection of ammunition choices.

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M700
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Posted: July 03 2018 at 7:01am | IP Logged Quote M700

Yup.

I know guys who are running Super cases & ammo, in a standard 45 1911, with nothing more than a recoil spring change.

The cartridge offers a lot of thump, in the terrific 1911 package.

As a fan of the 45 ACP & 1911, I really ought to give it a try one of these days.

Guy
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 03 2018 at 11:41am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Guy

A recommendation I would make if you decide to give it a "go". The folks who shoot a lot of Supers, use a heavier hammer and firing pin spring, a square bottom firing pin retainer, all to slow the slide down to reduce frame battering, not to mention a good shock buffer.

You can tell if you need a heavier firing pin spring, if there are firing pin drag marks on the primers of ejected cases.

Back in the 80s, I did a lot with +P+ .45ACP, I had some loads that chronographed at 1200 fps with a 200 grn bullet, the same bullet that Wade has posted about.

I had some significant drag marks on the primers, a bit of bulging in the back of the cases, and you almost had to pack a lunch when you went hiking for the empty cases.

The Glock Super conversion, requires a barrel change, mostly to get standard rifling, and a heavy recoil spring.

The "tupperware" guns tend to handle recoil better, as the entire frame acts as a buffer.

   
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Ham Gunner
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Posted: July 03 2018 at 1:52pm | IP Logged Quote Ham Gunner

I messed around a bit with .45 Super strength rounds in my old Tanfoglio Witness. Heavier firing pin spring and heavy recoil spring. Not really any problems other than eventually the safety got to where it would flick on by itself after each shot due to the recoil. I tired of the heavy recoil and the extra effort to work the heavy slide spring and tired of the gun itself and traded it for a five shooter SP-101 in .357. The Witness itself was a decent handgun though. I did have to work the trigger over a bit as it was long and heavy from the factory.



Edited by Ham Gunner on July 03 2018 at 1:54pm


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turbo1889
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Posted: July 03 2018 at 6:37pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

I wonder if my moonclip 45-ACP revolvers
would fire 45-Super without modifications?

I already shoot some pretty stiff
handloads in them on occasion.

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 04 2018 at 5:18am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

turbo

Here is an article about shooting .460 Roland loads in a Blackhawk.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=41
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 04 2018 at 5:21am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Hodgdon lists some standard pressure loads using CFE powder. The upper end load is listed at 1100 with a 200 grn bullet. I shot a few of those through my Ruger American .45 and could see where heavier springs were needed.
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M700
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Posted: July 04 2018 at 1:01pm | IP Logged Quote M700

Good input. Thank you!

Guy
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turbo1889
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Posted: July 04 2018 at 10:43pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

John Van Gelder wrote:
turbo

Here is an article about shooting .460
Roland loads in a Blackhawk.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.
asp?id=41



Thanks for the link, my 45-ACP revolvers
are not the Ruger Blackhawk but rather a
Taurus that takes 5 shot moon clips and
then a handful of various S&Ws models of
various vintages that use standard GI six
shot moon clips.

From the linked too article I think I
would be fine with 45-Super loads in
standard 45-ACP brass or 45-AutoRim brass
especially in the newer guns (although the
recoil might get a little on the savage
side with the ultralight m325) but going
all the way up to 460-Roland levels would
not be wise.

Main reason I like the 45-ACP moonclip
guns is the moon clips make for ready made
built in speed loaders and are quicker and
easier then most speed loaders in my
experience.

I would also like to pick up a top break
Webley   converted to use 45-ACP with
standard US GI moonclips from WWII but
haven't run across a good one yet for a
decent price. Also wish Charter Arms
would offer a version of their 5-shot 45-
ACP built to use the same moonclips as the
Taurus rather then the rimless ejection
system their offering currently uses (not
that it's a bad system but would be nice
to have a second cylinder for moon clip
use).

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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 05 2018 at 6:24am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

When shooting .45 ACP in any of the old revolvers intended for .45AR, best to load to standard .45ACP pressures.

I do have some load data from an old Speer manual listing 15 gr. of 2400, in the AR case with a 240 gr. SWC. That load lists 1150 fps in a 6 1/2 S&W.

Revolver speed loaders.. I believe that the British, came up with that idea, they had a paper and wooded device that held the cartridges, they were inserted into the cylinder of the Webley, a sharp blow with the heel of the hand broke the loader which fell away.

One of the guys I worked with in Alaska had a "shaved" Webley, that he shot .45ACPs in he carried extra half moon clips in his jacket pocket, that was his back up gun..
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RT58
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Posted: July 05 2018 at 7:18am | IP Logged Quote RT58

turbo1889 wrote:
...Main reason I like the 45-ACP moonclip
guns is the moon clips make for ready made
built in speed loaders and are quicker and
easier then most speed loaders in my
experience.

That's what I used to think too, until I qualified with a S&W 625 model of 1989. Everything was moving along smoothly until we got to a stage that was meant to practice tactical reloading. We were supposed to shoot four shots, remove and save the last two and eject the four empties, reload with a full speedloader, shoot four more shots, remove those four empties, load the loose two from before and shoot all four.

I went back to my 657.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: July 05 2018 at 11:21am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

My, oh my that sounds complicated. And y'all trained on
doing this? Trying to dump 4 spent and load 2 live with 2
more live staying in chambers while you're doing
cartridge acrobatics? Wow. I'm sorry but that's flat out
stupid. Ya don't play around when under fire. And ya damn
sure don't train for such nonsense! Even Barney Fire
wouldn't do that....

Pardon me a moment....

Ok, gave myself a head-slap and can move on now.

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turbo1889
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Posted: July 05 2018 at 3:08pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

RT58 wrote:
turbo1889 wrote:
...Main
reason I like the 45-ACP moonclip
guns is the moon clips make for ready made
built in speed loaders and are quicker and
easier then most speed loaders in my
experience.

That's what I used to think too, until I
qualified with a S&W 625 model of 1989.
Everything was moving along smoothly until
we got to a stage that was meant to
practice tactical reloading. We were
supposed to shoot four shots, remove and
save the last two and eject the four
empties, reload with a full speedloader,
shoot four more shots, remove those four
empties, load the loose two from before
and shoot all four.

I went back to my 657.


Sounds like some knucklehead was
deliberately trying to make it so you
couldn't qualify with a moon clip gun.
Although one could get mainly around this
by using a few strategically placed half
moon clips. Rediculous though; I can sort
of get the point somewhat with a normal
loose cartridge 6-shot revolver. First a
top off reload where you just dump
everything out and do a full reload but
save the two still good rounds and then
later an "Oh $#*+!!! I've only got two
rounds left and then I'm out, out. Oh,
wait I've still got two good rounds better
add them in and have all four of my last
of my last rounds in the gun.

With a moonclip gun in that situation, if
it wasn't a drill but for real. If you
have a break behind cover with only two
left in the gun and a chance to reload,
heck yah swap in a fresh moon clip and
maybe if your real good save the two still
good rounds by pocketing the whole thing
4-empties and all but if you get all the
way down to having to try to use them that
would be a #_&#+@& !!!

Just carry a few more moon clips then you
would normally carry speed loaders, which
is easy and simple and cheaper then good
speed loaders. I've never seen and hardly
heard of anyone packing more then 2 speed
loaders and often you can fit 4 full moon
clips in the same space and even the same
leather belt pouches as made for speed
loaders. I know two 9mm full moon clips
will stack right in a pouch for a single
38/357 speed loader one in the bottom one
in the top. Don't have a 45/454 speed
loader belt pouch but I bet you could
stack two 45 moon clips in one of them,
might have to use 45-GAP but that might be
a trade off that's worth it for reloads.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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M700
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Posted: July 05 2018 at 6:34pm | IP Logged Quote M700

RT58 wrote:
turbo1889 wrote:
...Main reason I like the 45-ACP moonclip
guns is the moon clips make for ready made
built in speed loaders and are quicker and
easier then most speed loaders in my
experience.

That's what I used to think too, until I qualified with a S&W 625 model of 1989. Everything was moving along smoothly until we got to a stage that was meant to practice tactical reloading. We were supposed to shoot four shots, remove and save the last two and eject the four empties, reload with a full speedloader, shoot four more shots, remove those four empties, load the loose two from before and shoot all four.

I went back to my 657.


Ya, it's so much faster to just pop six new ones into the 1989! What a handgun. Had one for a while, and admired it greatly, but... Got a better offer, so off it went.



That 3" 1989 was quite a handgun, but I don't know how well it would have handled 45 Super loads. I was content to shoot standard 45 ACP factory and handloaded ammo through it. Kinda wish I'd kept it, but it was more of a range toy for me than anything else.

Guy
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RT58
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Posted: July 05 2018 at 6:52pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

Sometimes you guys crack me up.

Wade, Barney Fife couldn't practice that since he only had one cartridge.

I had N frame speedloader pouches from Safariland and HKS, if I could have gotten more moon clips in them I would have done so.

For a short period after police training was taught by the PPC competition shooters it became based on actual gunfight experiences. Yes they may sound stupid, but they were often based on worst case examples and were aimed at letting an officer know what may be done if they're caught in a situation not covered by shooting at a piece of paper hanging on a backer.

Now officers are taught to shoot by experience gained by shooting balloons and all to often the balloons are winning.
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turbo1889
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Posted: July 05 2018 at 7:02pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Well I've already used my own hand loaded
version of Buffalo Bores +P "woodsman"
loading for the 45-ACP in all of my 45-ACP
moonclip guns except the oldest WWI
production gun which I'm not so sure of
it's metalergical capability. And it's
not much of a step up from those to a 45-
Super. If I try it, the Taurus will be
the first one I try it with since it seems
to be the strongest of them all.

Oh, by the way, wouldn't suggest the 45-
Super in the Bonds Arms 45-ACP derringer.
Tried my handloads version of the woodsman
loads in ONCE. Gun handled it just
fine. My hand and wrist ~ Not So Much !!!

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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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turbo1889
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Posted: July 05 2018 at 7:26pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Oh, yah, probably should mention only for
the 9mm moonclip gun do I stack two layers
of moonclips in the leather belt 38/357
speed loader pouches that I got out of a
barrel of assorted leather goods at a pawn
shop. I use the *big headed clipped tip
nail technique to access the bottom layer
of moon clips quickly and easily.

For the 45-ACP moonclip guns I have a
large leather snap top pouch also dug out
of that same barrel of leather goods at
that same pawn shop (I always dig through
that barrel every time I go to that place)
and it works great to just stuff full of a
couple of hanfuls of loaded moonclips. No
fancy tricks required to get out the last
couple of moonclips in the bottom. Just
reach in and grab until the pouch runs
empty.

*Big Headed Clipped Tip Nail
Technique = Take your moon clips to the
harware store in the nail bins area and
find a few nails that have a large enough
head on them that the head won't fit
through the center hole of the full
moonclips but isn't so big that it jambs
in tight between the cartridges. Then cut
the tip of the nail off to a length that
is just barely short enough to fit in the
speed loader pouches standing upright and
round off any sharp edges where you cut
off the tip of the nail. Stand the
completed nail(s) on their heads on the
counter and drop your bottom layer
moonclip down over the nails bullet tips
down over the nail head. Load these as
the first layer in the bottom of the speed
loader pouches including the nail, load
the top layer on top of these in the
pouches. Now after you use the top layer
of moonclips out of your pouches to
quickly get at the lower layer stuffed
down in the bottom of the pouches you
simply and easily grab the nail and pull,
this pulls your next reload clip up and
you then transfer your grip to the
moonclip and let the nail drop free to the
ground leaving the moonclip in your hand
ready to stuff into the gun.


__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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turbo1889
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Posted: July 05 2018 at 7:48pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

RT58 wrote:
. . . For a short period
after police training was taught by the
PPC competition shooters it became based
on actual gunfight experiences. Yes they
may sound stupid, but they were often
based on worst case examples and were
aimed at letting an officer know what may
be done if they're caught in a situation
not covered by shooting at a piece of
paper hanging on a backer.

Now officers are taught to shoot by
experience gained by shooting balloons and
all to often the balloons are winning.


I can understand that. When the turd hits
the fan in real life things go wrong and
you have to adapt or die. So I can see
how a moonclip gun does have disadvantages
in that reloads consist primarily of
swapping out the whole clip and any kind
of "top off" operation is cumbersome at
best and almost impossible with very tight
clips (Taurus style clips are better in
this then the GI S&W clips since the
spacing between Chambers in the cylinder
is greater and have releaf slots cut in
the clips between each chamber).

As to the actual training itself. The
best training experience I have personally
done is someone I know personally (who
will remain unnamed for multiple reasons)
who has more money then I do and has a
custom private live fire tactical training
range on their property where the targets
shoot back at you. Return fire is less
then lethal loads consisting of 69-caliber
hard black rubber balls fired by
compressed air in scuba tanks. The
targets are non-stationary moving pop-up
steel plate targets which interchangeable
paper friend-or-foe-or-bystander. The
return fire guns, some are random bouncers
that bounce around in their mounts
spraying wild bursts and a couple have
motion sensors on them that track your
position and put fairly accurate aimed
repeat fire on you. Knocking down foe
target plates turn off individual return
fire guns, many of which take multiple
hits to knock down. Return fire pressure
can be adjusted from light to barely less
then lethal. I've had some nasty 3"
diameter swollen red welts on me left by
running that range and someone else took a
hand hit and ended up with a broken
finger. Face masks are mandatory because
a face hit could knock out teeth or put an
eye out.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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RT58
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Posted: July 06 2018 at 8:38am | IP Logged Quote RT58

The biggest problem with the moon clips was I didn't have a de-mooning tool with me to pull the empty cases off and it was futile to try and load a moon clip with four empty cases back in the gun because the cases had expanded and wouldn't fit back in.

Looking over possible solutions later, which included half moon and third moon clips, loose rounds and etc., it seemed to me that the whole idea was a lot slower and more confusing than just using speedloaders. I also ordered a bunch of .45AR brass and a couple of HKS speedloaders for them and that's what I've used in my .45ACP revolvers ever since. Moon clips were a great idea in 1917, but their purpose was a lot different then now.

O.K. back to the original thread.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 07 2018 at 6:05am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

The moon clips are still a good idea if you have a lot of .45ACP brass. And .45ACP is always easier to find than the Auto Rim stuff.

Guy

That is a good looking setup, probably would take super loads, if that is the standard "N" frame cylinder.

Even with standard pressure .45 loads, a SWC or one of the RNFP bullets with a 80% meplat will increase efficiency substantially.

The Lee .45 200 RNFP bullet has a pretty large meplat, and when shooting paper cuts a clean full caliber hole.

It works well in both the Colt and ACP. You can push it to around 1000 fps and be in the 15K pressure range.

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