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Old Ranger
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Posted: July 07 2018 at 10:00am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Funny you mention the 200gr RNFP Lee bullet. Some months
back Drunk Neighbor noticed that bullet in my 45Colt open
top when we were shooting at his place. He marveled at
that big flat nose. First thing out of his mouth was "Can
that go in a 45 auto?" I went into the ammo box I
had there and produced a box of 45ACP with the very same
bullet. His eyes grew wide and since he was sober he was
polite in asking to shoot a few from his Ruger American
45.

Filling a magazine, he actually did two rounds slow fire
before he went nuts firing at warp speed. His comments:
"Ya know them first two did pretty good. But the rest of
'em kinda scattered a bit. That's a big scary bullet. Bet
it'll knock the crap outta some hog huh?" I advised that
was the general idea. I was fortunate that he didn't ask
for some cast and sized, but he's into mass bulk loading
with plated 230gr RN. He later said he's going to start
casting soon and might get the mould.

The 255RNFP Lee mould is now falling apart, but the 200gr
is holding up so far. With a good dose of Universal or
Unique that one does scoot along pretty good out of both
my 45s. Can't complain.

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RT58
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Posted: July 07 2018 at 10:38am | IP Logged Quote RT58

John, I like pre-MIM S&W's more than anything else I've ever shot. But if I had a bunch of .45ACP ammo or brass and nothing to shoot them out of I'd buy an autoloader.

Some revolver competition shooters like shooting short, moonclipped, ammo out of their firearms because it gives them an edge. Bullseye revolver shooters like the bigger bullet to give them and edge. I don't shoot competition and feel they are not worth a darn for my use. When S&W's top revolver salesman, Jerry Miculek, set a record for reloading a revolver everyone had to have one, but it was nothing but a sales gimmick. If you are looking for a self defense firearm do your homework, you're betting your life on your choice.

I also have a S&W model 1917 Brazilian and a S&W model of 1950, which I like a lot more than the 1989, and they are great range guns, but make lousy self defense weapons compared to what else is available. Even with AR brass they wouldn't be my first choice, nor second, third, fourth, etc. for a self defense weapon.

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 07 2018 at 12:41pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Wade the little 200 grn. RNFP is quickly becoming my favorite in all of my .45s the "long and the short".

I finally got around to pressing some into Colt cases and shooting them through my Redhawk, one caveat here, my Redhawk has rifle sights. Kind of boring shooting, put the bead on the target, pull the trigger, job done.

RT58

I got into an argument, I know hard to belove I would get into an argument, with some of the nimrods on the cast bullet forum, who were advocating the single action revolver for self defense.

My comment was, "Do not let nostalgia be the cause of your death!"

You can make do with anything if you are in a pinch, but it does not make much sense, to go up against some one who may have 20+ rounds, some of the CZ clones have 22 round mags, with a 5 or 6 shooter.

But and there is always a butt.. A real life shoot out that occurred in my detachment in Alaska, a couple of the locals got into an argument at one the the public springs, the only source of decent drinking water in the area.

Homesteader A (antagonist) had a Uzi, homesteader D (defender) had a 2 3/4" mod 19. The argument went very bad, D jumped in his truck and tried to leave, A opened up with the Uzi, D ducked down behind his door, stuck his hand out through the now missing glass and shot, blindly, until he used up his six. At the last shot all was quiet. D look up and saw A lying on the ground.

One round from his little smith was a "10X"..

Edited by John Van Gelder on July 07 2018 at 12:43pm
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turbo1889
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Posted: July 07 2018 at 4:05pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

In Response to John Van Gelder's post above.

Yup, skill combined with luck and Providence's good
grace can sometimes work out. Your story reminds me
of an incident on the Reservation a decade or so back.

1 ~ Woman dumps her Boyfriend

2 ~ Boyfriend tries to get back with woman, forceably,
woman successfully fights him off and throws him out
of her trailer house (fists, boots, fingernails, and
teeth not guns).

3 ~ Boyfriend is now REALLY MAD, when a woman kicks
your ass on the reservation apparently major issue for
you.

4 ~ Boyfriend comes back a few hours later with AK and
several full magazines and opens up on her whole
trailer house from outside apparently doing a
methodical up and down zig-zag from one end to the
other as fast as he can pull trigger and reload.

5 ~ Woman shoots back from shot out window with a bolt
action hunting rifle with scope and shoots once and
only once. Bullet hole in boyfriend was about a half
inch to one side of his nose.


I'm not law enforcement but I've heard the same story
from several different sources in local law
enforcement.

That squaw must have ovaries of steel, although they
say she ended up having to move off the reservation
afterwards, he had family apparently and they weren't
so pleased.

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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: July 07 2018 at 4:38pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Musta been Blackfoot or Crow.

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RT58
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Posted: July 07 2018 at 7:20pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

Yes John, there is always a but.

Many people seem to have a pre-conception about the gunfight they are going to be in, but in reality there is no way of knowing. If I did I'd prefer not to show up.

Most gunfights don't last very long and until the police started carrying autos very few shot were fired. It's not what you carry but how well you use it, but the real variable in a gunfight is the other guy. Yes you can win with an old SAA, but if you happen to be up against a guy that takes those first six shots and keeps coming you might regret your choice. The second worst shooter alive has a good chance if he's up against the worst, but if he's up against an experienced shooter his chances aren't quite so good.

By the way, my posts are about police gunfighting because I spent most of my adult life trying to learn everything I could about the subject. Now, I wish I'd trained to be a machinist.

I forgot to mention...regardless of how many shots the other guys pistol may have, my goal is to keep him from shooting as many as I can.

Edited by RT58 on July 07 2018 at 7:33pm
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REM1875
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Posted: July 08 2018 at 2:44am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

When I had kids the guns were unloaded and anyone who has
tried to do a panic load of a revolver in the dark,
dropping shell after shell on the floor soon learns the
value of moon clips.
(yeah I know some never have that problem - I have ...
more than once) Them casings seem to get slippery in
sweaty hands......

Oddly enough most of my current moon clips are for 10 mm/
40 S&W.....

I have seen some slick stuff on loading revolvers from
automatics magazine .....tried it and it worked ...but if
I am gonna carry a automatics magazine .....it's gonna be
in the automatic ......
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 08 2018 at 5:31am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

I do not recall who said it, some old frontiersman after seeing the first Colt revolver, "those will never replace the tomahawk for close work!"

A knife is always a good idea along with with whatever side arm you carry.

I can recall a time when gunfight statistics agreed that most situations lasted only a few seconds and there were no more that five or six shots traded.

I have watched a number of recent police involved shootings and the times haven't changed much, but there are probably 10 times as many shots fired. And based on the deadly force restraints we operated under, a lot of what I have seen does not appear to be justified.



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turbo1889
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Posted: July 08 2018 at 6:39am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Old Ranger wrote:
Musta been Blackfoot
or Crow.


Blackfoot

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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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RT58
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Posted: July 08 2018 at 8:47am | IP Logged Quote RT58

Rem, try speedloaders for your DA swingout revolvers. It is possible to load a revolver one cartridge at a time in the dark but you'd want to practice that a lot before you really need it.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: July 08 2018 at 8:48am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Blackfoot eh?
Figures.
They only fight women, and they fight LIKE
women.

Lakota men don't strike women or children.

Oops! Minor thread hijacking !

Edited by Old Ranger on July 08 2018 at 8:51am


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Old Ranger
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Posted: July 08 2018 at 9:48am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

With the exception of the first, in three shootings with
five suspects over time, I fired once per suspect. Four
did not survive the encounter. The first took two, but I
was a might pissed off as he shot me first. Thought that
was enough to deserve two rounds.
Few years later I made a felony stop on a vehicle with
three armed robbery suspects inside. Backup was a mile
off. All three exited at once. It was intense for a few
seconds. I saw guns pointed at me and they didn't want to
go to jail. I put a round in each of 'em. One recovered
and got 30 years in Huntsville [Texas prison]. The other
two didn't make it.

I ran the shooting investigation board for our PD. I, or
one of the others, investigated all officer involved
shootings. On or off duty. Over the years the number of
rounds expended against suspects trippled when the
Beretta 92F 9mm was issued. Whole magazines were emptied
at one suspect in some cases with either minor injury or
none at all. Most suspects surrendered figuring the
officer might get lucky with the next volley when he
reloaded. High capacity mags are a crutch for poor
shooting and lack of practice. Sad really.

I practiced every day. When not at the range,I was in the
garage at home with a piece of carpet between studs and a
B27 target tacked up. Speer plastic practice bullets and
cases were used. I shot 6 days out of the week for years.
Between that and lots of prior combat time in the jungles
gave me an edge over the scumbags I shot it out with back
in the day. I shoot poorly today compared to then. Age
and two minor strokes over the past ten years have slowed
me down some.

Cops today do not have the dedication to train or
practice. They spray rounds all over the place. They make
bad decisions. Shoot someone that lethal force might not
be needed, and race riots erupt as a result.
Yeah, I wouldn't be a cop today. They all hate you. When
I started rookies often walked a beat downtown. You're
exposed. Open for scrutiny by all. But at the same time
you're right there with everyone. High-end executives and
the winos in the alleys. Everyone. You quickly learn
about people.
Today they stick you in a car. Isolated and cut off from
the people you serve. You never get to know your people
and they never know you. You go from call to call taking
reports and pass out business cards with the service
number of the report written on it saying that the
detectives will contact them. No wonder the public hates
cops. When all they do now is stay in the car with the
A/C running and never interacting with the public. And
when a suspect gets outta hand, instead of taking him
down with a few swats, they shoot em! Why? No training or
practice. No social skills. No hand-to-hand skills. Its
tazer or shoot the $hit out of 'em! Wonderful.....

Sorry for the rant.
Stepping down from the soap box now...

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"I am not politically correct. I don't apologise for being American. I stand by my country and have no use for anyone who does not."

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turbo1889
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Posted: July 08 2018 at 12:50pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

I hate to cop bash, but you have a real
point there, Old Ranger.

I'll just add two things I've noticed as a
non-cop with my interactions with cops.
The "bad" run-ins I've had could be boiled
down into only two categories:

1 ~ The "bad" cop had a "it's us cops vs
the rest of you" attitude. An attitude
which although I can see how it could
develop innocently enough due to justified
frustration with the hard job they have
ends up no where good in the long run.

2 ~ The "bad" cop had a personal issue.
Please understand I don't mean this in the
normal way. What I mean is that the cop
was so self centered that (s)he thought
the world revolved around them and that
they had personal authority in and of
themselves and what they thought
personally was gospel truth and they were
personally the law rather then
PERSONAL was SUBSERVIENT to HIGHER
PRINCIPLES
. Basically a lack of
self control combined with a upbringing
where their "modern parents" raised them
to think there was no God but they were
the closest thing to it.

I'm sorry but if a person has either of
those two attitude problems until a
complete and verifiable over time reversal
has been made they have no business being
in any kind of authority much less a cop.


Other then those with those two problem
attitudes cops can be pretty cool people
and some of the most caring people.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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RT58
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Posted: July 08 2018 at 2:55pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

Very good post Wade. Law enforcement has changed a lot even since I started in 1979.

There is still a lot of good officers but the number of "cowboys" keeps increasing and they are the ones that make headlines in the media, which is no accident. Modern firearms training is a joke and keeps getting worse every time they try to correct it. I've heard of many shootings where insane amounts of ammunition were fired with no or few hits and it is a combination of bad training and lack of concern by the officers.

I was always involved in community policing, talking to citizens and listening to what they had to say. I learned a lot and it was interesting how much they would let slip after they felt comfortable. But, I could also walk into a heated situation between people I knew and they would calm right down.

Your post was good too Turbo. I eventually hated working with our other officers because the Chief would call me the next day looking for information on all the complaints filed against them.
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RT58
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Posted: July 08 2018 at 2:59pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

John, I like knives too. And most other things that had an edge or were pointy...and a few blunt instruments also.
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Old Ranger
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Posted: July 08 2018 at 3:16pm | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

You're right, don't cop bash.
I was a third generation cop.
My son is now the fourth.
My grandfather, great uncle, father, and uncle were cops
before me. I was born and bred to be a soldier and a
peace officer. My only friends were almost without
exception, all fellow officers.
By 1990 we began to close ranks in the blue line. People
began to hate cops. By the first decade of the 21st
century cops were the prime target for assassination,
murder, physical attacks, and law suits. No one likes
cops now. Society is disintegrating into liberal takeover
and if you oppose it you're destroyed by them. Cops tend
to be hardline right-wing thinkers and conservative by
nature. Liberals really hate the police.

Screw it. I'm done talking. Me and mine fought and bled
for people that wouldn't give you the time of day if they
knew you were a cop. Yet we still do it. Stupid huh?
But never make the mistake of spitting on my badge....

I'll not speak of this further. I'm getting a negative
tint in my vision.

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 09 2018 at 6:00am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Being a policeman in the far north was completely different that in the "lower 48", in some detachments one trooper covered an area the size of some of the smaller states. On numerous occasions if a situation got out of hand some civilian would step up and ask if I needed help.

One time I arrested a fellow up on the remote reaches of the Stakine river, and about a month later my boat broke down and the same guy took me back to town.

I went out to remote village one time to pick up guy for shooting his brother in law, right there one thinks maybe it was justified, we flew into the village, landed on skis in the winter time, and then hiked out to where the guy was cutting wood with some of the other villagers. We told our suspect that he needed to get a few things, and say his good byes, because he needed to come with us.

We, my FWP officer pilot/partner, told him to meet us at the air strip, while we made some other "house calls" in the village.

One hour later when we headed back to the plane to get it ready to go, our guy was waiting there for us.

Just a thumbnail sketch of what it was like in the far north, other times my closest back up was the RCMP.

In some instances I/we were the prosecutor in court, other times the defense counsel, I have been the on scene coroner at plane crashes and filled in for the magistrate in a pinch.

It was just a different life, the only other police agency that had similar experiences were the lads with the RCMP that worked in Northern BC, the Yukon and the NWT.

The vast majority of the time we got on well with the civilian population, but obviously not 100% of the time or there would have been no need for us. Back then there were just over 200 of us to cover half a million square miles, with some of the worst weather on the planet.

I would not have been a policeman anywhere else. I retired almost 30 years ago, and things may have changed.

Things that were done under the midnight sun...

You would have had to have been there!    

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