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RT58
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Posted: July 27 2018 at 6:44pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

I don't know squat about saddles, but this conversation is far more interesting than S&W vs. Ruger, autos vs. revolvers, .45ACP vs. 9mm, etc., etc., etc., discussions.
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LAH
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Posted: July 27 2018 at 7:01pm | IP Logged Quote LAH

Never saddled a horse but have put a harness on a time or
two. Mostly to cultivate corn.

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 28 2018 at 5:30am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

I should start another thread, about horses.

The history of the world would have been considerably different without them. We started using machines for transport in the 18th century, and horses for the preceding 3000+ years.



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Old Ranger
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Posted: July 28 2018 at 6:51am | IP Logged Quote Old Ranger

Ya know I was taking a break from this for forum strictly
because of this very thing. I came back because I
promised to report on my getting this 28. Well as you can
see its about fancy saddles and horse history lessons.
I'm Lakota. I am from a Horse Nation. I need no lessons.
I'm tired of being told everything I have is inferior and
crap like that.

You win John. You just can't help yourself can you? Is it
because I'm a half-breed? A Texan? I prefer to shave
daily? Or is it that I'm not a yankee?
Well piss on this. I'm outta here.

Adios!

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LAH
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Posted: July 28 2018 at 7:11am | IP Logged Quote LAH

Stay in contact Wade, I'll be around.

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dahlin
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Posted: July 28 2018 at 9:03am | IP Logged Quote dahlin

Gee wiz John its not like you were talking bad about Rugers. that would be to much.
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STCM(SW)
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Posted: July 28 2018 at 9:23am | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

Did I miss something?
Hope I never get that thin skinned......

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REM1875
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Posted: July 28 2018 at 11:34am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Again ???
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turbo1889
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Posted: July 28 2018 at 11:16pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Well, actually I saw the saddle and horses
discussion earlier but didn't have time to
read and post but just to glance and
wanted to get in on that discussion.

I was particularly interested in the idea
that's saddle that doesn't fit a horse
right can hurt the horse. I've never
heard that claim before and since I have
known several "hors people" including my
woman's family who have their own
preferred saddle that they move from horse
to horse.

Now me I did not grow up with my parents
having horses but a few of my friends did
and I mainly rode bare-back with no proper
halter/harness/reigns for the younger
years not knowing what I was doing just
following my friends lead and climbing on
the horses and doing our best to ride them
and using our hands on their neck and our
legs around their body to try to get them
to go where we wanted to go and of course
falling of a lot and sometimes getting
bucked off ~ typical dumb kid stuff.

Later on as a teenager I learned to use a
saddle and halter and reigns but didn't
have a huge amount of practice with that
and the way I ride still has a lot of the
bare-back kid in it. What I generally use
for a saddle isn't a proper saddle, my
woman's family calls it "The Indian
Saddle" (no offence ment by either them or
me) and it's four layers of thick heavy
horse blanket in a big diamond shape with
chink and sturups sewn on to two opposite
corners of the diamond that go on each
side of the horse and then the back point
of the diamond is rolled up to form a
thick roll of fabric behind your rear so
you don't slip off the back and the front
point of the diamond is also rolled up but
not near as thick of a roll. It's about
an inch thick of heavy course alpaka wool
like blanket layers between you and the
horse, that's it. It was something they
got in a lot sale at an auction of
assorted horse tack. I like it a lot and
it's pretty much what I always use
whenever I ride any of their horses pretty
much to the point where they pretty much
figure that it's my saddle even though I
haven't technically bought it from them.

Just wondering what you guys think of that
kind of saddle setup, I wouldn't think
that kind of saddle could ever be a
problem as far as hurting the horse
because it doesn't fit the horse since
it's not a semi-rigid leather type saddle.

As far as horses go, as long as the horse
is gentle and can "understand me" since I
use my legs as much or more then the
reigns to communicate with the horse I'm
good. Although the last year I have had a
new favorite among their horses. They
cycle through a lot of horses that have
been removed from their owners by animal
control due to neglect or abuse to get
them back up to helth before they can be
adopted to new better owners and they
awuired a big draft horse a little more
then a year ago, it's not a Clidesdale but
a similar draft breed that isn't quite as
big but still a big stocky powerful
pulling horse. She is very gentle and
"gets me" found a harness to fit her
digging through their miscellaneous tack,
removed the blinders and put some riding
length reigns on it, used the "Indian
Saddle" with an extended for the chink to
fit her much stockier middle section and
she is great for me to ride. Not going to
win any speed contests but she can still
move at a good clip and it is like ridding
a tank compared to a regular horse being
like a jeep !!! Awesome man !!!

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 29 2018 at 5:42am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

The give and take of information here is one of the appeals to this forum, the accumulated knowledge of the membership, equals several hundred years of experiences.

There is much more to learn from a free exchange of information, not limited to a single topic. A lot of times the side issues are more interesting than the main topic, and may in turn spawn several new topics.

Kind of the freedom of speech thing..
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: July 29 2018 at 5:44am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Turbo

There is a real science to fitting saddles, the horse has in most part fallen into the recreational category, and as such we have learned more about them in the last fifty years than in the preceding century.
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RT58
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Posted: August 04 2018 at 9:36am | IP Logged Quote RT58

REM1875 wrote:
John
I don't think I could even see a ballon 1000 yards away
with a scope .......Amazing


You don't need to see the balloon because you aren't shooting at the balloon. With the amount of bullet drop at 1000 yards he'd have to aim way over the balloon, probably at the "1000" yard marker would be my guess. Even then the balloon isn't the target, the metal plate the balloon is on is as a hit anywhere on it will make the bullet splatter and pop any balloon attached to it.

I've seen Bob Munden do this type of stunt, along with his other parlor tricks.
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REM1875
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Posted: August 04 2018 at 2:53pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

RT58 wrote:
REM1875 wrote:
John
I don't think I could even see a ballon 1000 yards away
with a scope .......Amazing


You don't need to see the balloon because you aren't
shooting at the balloon. With the amount of bullet drop
at 1000 yards he'd have to aim way over the balloon,
probably at the "1000" yard marker would be my guess.
Even then the balloon isn't the target, the metal plate
the balloon is on is as a hit anywhere on it will make
the bullet splatter and pop any balloon attached to it.

I've seen Bob Munden do this type of stunt, along with
his other parlor tricks.


RT58
Good point .....but I'll stick with targets just a tad
closer with handguns ....
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: August 05 2018 at 5:57am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

The real limiting factor in long range pistol shooting is the sights. I use the Keith method, elevating the front sight over the rear. Adjustable sight Revolvers have relatively tall sights, so you have a lot of front sight to use. One reason why semi autos do not make good long range guns, the sights are all pretty much too low.

There is a video of a guy shooting targets out to 600 yards using a 9mm semi-auto. He taped a mark on his slide between the front and rear sight and that became his front sight, for long range shooting.

I have a tall set of sight I installed on my old Colt 1911, I can reach out pretty far with that, using the Kieth method.

A note here I am pretty sure Keith did not come up with this, but did make it popular.

There are some exceptions, both Luger, Mauser and Browning, and probably others, had carbine models of their handguns, with a shoulder stock and long range adjustable sight options.     
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Paul B.
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Posted: August 05 2018 at 2:39pm | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

"A note here I am pretty sure Keith did not come up with this, but did
make it popular."

I read an article many years ago about how cavalry troops could shoot
the horse out from under the Indian at better than 200 yards with their
Colt .45 revolvers shooting the full power 40 gr. black powder load.

On another note, back in the early 80's my buddy and I were invited to
hunt elk up the Olympic Penninsula. One of the people in the group, a
70+ year old retired judge who absolutely hated handguns. My bud
and I both packed S&W .44 mags on that trip. He kept ragging us
about the guns so finally I said to my buddy, "I'm gonna try and shut
that old fool up." So I baited him a bit till he said they were not
accurate and you couldn't hit anything past ten feet blah blah blah!

Where we were standing while taking a break we could look down a
very steep hillside and see the Humptulips river. Sticking part way out
off the near bank was a dead tree with one brach out over the water.
Range on the slant about 250 yards give or take and allowing for the
slant maybe 175. I told the judge I'd bet him $100 I could either hit that
branch or come mighty close. First thing he said was that popgun
won't even shoot that far. I said back if you're right that you made an
easy $100. Then very quietly said. "Put up or shut up." The rest of the
group egged him into taking the bet. I either had to hit the branch or
cole very close. I was allowed the 6 shots in my 629 to do the trick. I
sat down holding the gun between my legs and let of the first shot.
Pieces flew off the branch. I looked at the judge and asked him if he
wanted to go double or nothing? I figured I could easily come close but
hitting the branch on the first shot was pure luck. Oh and the judge
paid off.
My bud and I spent many a day or night shooting jack rabbits and by
the time my job transferred me from Nevada to Arizona head shooting
standing jacks was easy. Took a few deer too. My load was Elmer
Keith's load of 22.0 gr. #2400 and a 250 gr. Lyman #429241. Sad to
say I haven't shot the .44's in some time. All the open areas that were
here back in 1979 are now all sub-division of ugly houses. A pox on all
developers.
Paul B.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: August 05 2018 at 5:02pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Handguns are more accurate than we give them credit for.

The biggest limiting factor in long range handgun shooting, is our eyes as we get older.

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RT58
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Posted: August 06 2018 at 7:41am | IP Logged Quote RT58

John, there is a big difference between the "Keith" technique of long range shooting and the shot Jerry made and it's in the amount of skill required. Just removing the steel backer from the balloon would have made Jerry's shot more difficult, but as it is it's more in the set up than the skill.

The TV show "Outrageous Acts of Science" had a video of Jerry making a 1000 yard pistol shot on one of their episodes. I'm not sure if it was this one because it was edited for their show, plus I didn't pay that much attention. Their science experts went into great detail about how he did it, but were all wrong, he's not using science, just the magic of illusion.
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dahlin
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Posted: August 06 2018 at 8:22am | IP Logged Quote dahlin

How many shots did it take 1 or 100 ? Randy
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: August 06 2018 at 9:18am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

The steel plate made the difference, it was a pretty incredible shot just hitting the plate.

I believe he did it with one cylinder full.

As I recall to make the shot he used an aiming point 75+ yards above the target.

1000 pistol shot
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RT58
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Posted: August 08 2018 at 4:35pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

Thanks for putting that link up again John. The first time I watched it the video froze up and I didn't finish it. I didn't realize he was using an optical sight, having the target and sight both visible in the same focal plane would have made it a lot easier.
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