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John Van Gelder
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Posted: August 20 2018 at 5:42am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Not sure if I mentioned the 7.5x25, this is a semi auto based on the CZ75, lots of hype about it being the most powerful semi auto handgun.

The ballistics claimed for the gun are a 90-100 grain bullet at over 2000 fps. I have seen some groups from a machine rest the are right around 1" at 100 yards.

The down side here is that there is only one source of ammo as of yet and the cost of the gun is around 7-8000.00 dollars. Well out of my price range.

With all of the advertising hype, some brought up the fact that several years ago, the IPSC shooters designed a cartridge, to get 9mm into major power factor.

That was the 9x 25 Dillon, a 10mm case necked down to 9mm.

If you already have a 10mm, then all you need for the conversion is a new barrel, and a set of dies. The ballistics of the two cartridges are similar, the bullet for the 7.5 has a higher BC, so it retains energy better over long range.

Even buying a new gun, barrel and dies for the 9x25 can be done for around $700.00.

I can't imagine how an $8000.00 hand gun would ever be very popular.   
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RT58
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Posted: August 20 2018 at 10:50am | IP Logged Quote RT58

I searched the CIP's site since I never heard of it, then Googled "7.5 FK".

"advertising hype" was a very good choice of words John. If I had to choose between the 7.5 or 9x25, I'd go with the 9X25, even if someone else was paying for it. If I didn't have to choose between those two, I'd go with one of the cartridges I already shoot.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: August 21 2018 at 5:52am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

I do not see how anyone could justify the $8000.00 price, or the manufacturers expectation that anyone would be willing to spend that kind of money for a hand gun.

I think that the 9x25 would be considerably more useful.

The 7.5x25 uses a .29 cal bullet, when a 7.62x 25 would have taken a pretty wide variety of readily available 30, cal bullets.
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RT58
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Posted: August 21 2018 at 3:53pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

While looking for information on it yesterday I read something about it being originally developed for a "government contractor" in the Middle East. That was my first guess for the high price tag. And it also said the contractor in question left before the gun was available. The information, which came from different sites, was almost word for word what you'd read in a gun magazine. As you said, "advertising hype", not to mention double talk and pure B.S.
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REM1875
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Posted: August 21 2018 at 7:18pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

" 7.5 FK. It is a bottleneck design that is not based on
any existing cartridge cases, so donít expect to make your
own with existing brass."

Oh nice proprietary brass they get to set their own price
to.... At least the 10 mm is available at reasonable prices

Proprietary pricing on the gun too !!!

I'm gonna wait a bit ........on both .....

Edited by REM1875 on August 21 2018 at 7:25pm
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: August 22 2018 at 5:48am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

A .30 cal on the 10mm case, would be a close fit.

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RT58
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Posted: August 22 2018 at 7:52am | IP Logged Quote RT58

I wonder if Magnum Research would neck their .50AE down to take .25 ACP bullets. That should give a lot of KE, for those that don't have a clue.

It appears the whole purpose of the FK is to make money. As Forest Gump's mama used to say, "stupid is as stupid does".
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turbo1889
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Posted: August 23 2018 at 12:06am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

The 9x25 Dillon cartridge design has known
neck tension issues, like the 357-Sig but
generally considered to be worse. I have
no idea about 7.5-FK and couldn't find any
info searching online, probably too new
and too rare of a cartridge for reliable
experience data to have been developed.

I used to like the 400-Corbon until I also
ran into neck tension issues with it. It
can be worked around but is still an
annoyance. I have a wildcatted barrel for
my Glock 20 that was a 357-Sig aftermarket
caliber conversion barrel that I used a
customized reamer to convert it to what I
call the "357-LNAM" (LNAM = Long Neck Auto
Magnum). I used the same reamer to modify
a set of 357-Sig loading dies the same way
I modified the chamber. Basically all it
is, is a 357-Sig cartridge with a longer
neck that is 9x25 Dillon length. Solved
the neck tension issues and made it work
well with just about any bullet I chose to
use and drastically improved cast lead
bullet compatibility. But it created a
different problem, the cartridges tend to
"droop forward" in the Glock 10mm magazine
which ever 200 or so rounds on average can
cause a failure to feed due to the
cartridge "nose diving". So that barrel,
dies, loaded rounds, and brass are in a
box in the back of one of my storage
drawers and has been stuck back there for
years now, that failure rate is too high
for anything but range shooting. Problem
could probably be fixed with magazine
modification but I never presued it that
far. Just the regular old 10mm works just
fine for me. No neck tension issues, no
bullet compatibility issues (aftermarket
barrel with normal rifling for cast lead)
and no feeding issues.

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REM1875
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Posted: August 23 2018 at 2:13am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Let's not forget the .17-50 BMG

Turbo
I like the 400 Cor-Bon to....but have never used the 400
cor-bon brass or factory load....

I want to try the 357 Sig but haven't yet.....

Edited by REM1875 on August 23 2018 at 2:16am
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: August 23 2018 at 5:26am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Even older than the 9x19 is the .30 Luger, the .30 Mauser and the similar Russian 7.62x25 all have been used by militarys, some are still in use. The reliability of necked cartridges is not an issue, since most modern rifle cartridges are necked.

The 9X25 Dillon was used in competition regularly and mostly fell out of favor, because the IPSC major power factor was lowered, and could be met with the .38 super.

I would be willing to bet that we will see more necked handgun cartridges in the future.

Phonograph needles at 4K fps would be just as deadly as a .45 bullet at 800.

Probably before that "internal combustion" firearms will be museum pieces and hand held energy weapons the norm.
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REM1875
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Posted: August 23 2018 at 6:06am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

"Phonograph needles at 4K fps would be just as deadly as
a .45 bullet at 800. "

The main problem with that John is that ya have to load
the powder in the the flash hole before adding the
primer....


There used to be loads for the 9 Largo that would set a
house on fire to......Although I don't recommend them
(9 Largo is another 9x23 case and is similar to the 38
ACP BUT most agree NOT the 38 Super)

There have been some problems with sharp shoulder, high
pressure bottleneck cartridges in revolvers backing out
and locking the action (22 REM Jet AKA 22 Centerfire
Magnum).....However modern revolvers like
the BFR 30-30 seem to have that worked out ???

Over a 100 years of success use in autos seem to rule
that out in those actions......

Edited by REM1875 on August 23 2018 at 6:12am
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RT58
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Posted: August 23 2018 at 8:48am | IP Logged Quote RT58

John Van Gelder wrote:
...Phonograph needles at 4K fps would be just as deadly as a .45 bullet at 800.


Maybe on paper, but not in the real world.

There have been several fine bottleneck cartridges for autos. Problems with some of the above mentioned is due to the fact that they are sorry afterthoughts of a non-bottlenecked parent cartridge.

While bottlenecked pistol rounds do usually feed better than straight walled cases, the fact that they are intended for short range pretty much defeats the whole purpose of bottlenecks and straight walled cartridges are a better choice.

I think the whole reason the 7.5FK was developed was because someone didn't have a clue about what they wanted, or needed, other than the manufacturer who wanted a gimmick to make more money.
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turbo1889
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Posted: August 23 2018 at 11:36pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

John Van Gelder wrote:
Even older than
the 9x19 is the .30 Luger, the .30 Mauser
and the similar Russian 7.62x25 all have
been used by militarys, some are still in
use. The reliability of necked cartridges
is not an issue, since most modern rifle
cartridges are necked. . . .


The difference with many of the bottleneck
pistol cartridges and rifle cartridges is
the neck length to diameter ratio. You
will find few if any 30-cal rifle
cartridges with a neck that is only 0.15"
long (1/2 neck length to diameter ratio)
and you will mainly find sensible neck
lengths that do not get much shorter then
a 1-to-1 ratio that provide sufficient
neck tension to provide stable primary
powder ignition and reduce bullet pulling
under recoil forces or bullet back seating
during chambering.

With the bottleneck pistol cartridges the
importance of having enough neck length to
achieve these necessary elements is often
sacrificed.

9x25-Dillon uses a 0.153" neck length with
a 0.356" bullet diameter.

357-Sig uses a 0.15" neck length with a
0.356" bullet diameter.

400-Corbon uses a 0.15" neck length with a
.401" bullet diameter.

All of those the neck is less then half a
bullet diameter long.

30-Luger uses a 0.156" neck length with a
.309" bullet diameter.

30-Mauser uses a 0.155" neck length with a
0.309" bullet diameter.

7.62x25 uses a 0.157" neck length with a
0.308" bullet diameter.

Again there is a very clear pattern
developing, everyone seems to think that a
neck length of 0.15" is sufficient it
seems to work fairly well for the 30-cal
old original bottleneck cartridges but
when they developed the new batch they
continued it for the larger calibers and
it don't work as well for them since when
you go for a larger bullet diameter if you
don't adjust the neck length to longer
then the old 0.15" minimum to match the
neck becomes less and less effective in
holding the bullet with sufficient neck
tension. Compare this to rifle cartridges.

30-06 uses a 0.385" neck length with a
.308" bullet diameter.

7.62x51 (308-Win) uses a 0.303" neck
length with a 0.308 bullet diameter.

7.62x39 uses a 0.225" neck length with a
0.311" bullet diameter.

5.56x45 (223-Rem) uses a 0.203" neck
length with a .224" bullet diameter.

375-H&H uses a 0.352" neck length with a
.375" bullet diameter.

416 Remington Magnum uses a 0.419" neck
length with a .416 bullet diameter.

As you can tell from those numbers the
rifle cartridges all have much better neck
length to bullet diameter ratios which is
not 100% of what determines whether you
will have neck tension issues or not but
it is well over 50% of what determines it.

My wildcat 357-LNAM uses a 0.277" neck
length with a 0.356" jacketed bullet or
.357" cast lead bullet. As far as neck
tension issues it has none compared to
357-Sig or 400-Corbon although it still
isn't quite as stable as a real 357-Mag.
and it can still safely fire 357-Sig
provided you clean the carbon ring out of
the forward part of the chamber neck
before switching back to shooting 357-LNAM
with it's extended neck length. It just
nose droops just a little too much for a
stock G20 magazine and action for full
100% reliability. With some modifications
to the magazine or in a different 10mm
host platform this issue is probably
resolvable.

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: August 24 2018 at 6:21am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Rifles most often shoot long bullets, so a long neck is required, pistols..short bullets.

The limiting factor in autos is the magazine, bullet/case OAL have to fit in the magazine.

With longer necks comes reduced powder capacity.

Rifles have issues with neck tension, which is remedied with heat treatment.

The FN 5.7X28 used in the P90, actually a machine pistol does have a pretty long neck as it is designed to shoot longer bullets. The .22TCM was designed for short bullets and has a shorter neck.


The 7.62X25 Tokarev, has been in service since 1930 and still is, the earlier 7.63X25 designed in 1898, based on the even earlier 7.65x25 Borchardt.

As far as reliability nothing is 100% reliable, except for a good knife.

As far as the 7.5X25, when the smoke clears, it is no more effective than the original .357 magnum loadings.

And for the phonograph needles at 4K, that will not be achieved with gun powder, that will require something on the order of a small hand held linear accelerator,





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Posted: August 25 2018 at 7:32am | IP Logged Quote The_Shadow

I have been shooting and working with the 9x25 Dillon and 357 Sig from various conversion barrels from my 10mm firearms. I hand load both of these and use the Dillon Dies because they have dual carbide sizers to size the 10mm portion and 9mm sizer for the neck areas.

I have had communications with Randy Shelley the developer of the 9x25 over the years. I have put together a short story based on our conversations and pictures he shared and they can be read here:
Mr. Randy Shelley the 9x25

Also I have done a few pull down documentations of some of the commercially available 9x25 ammo from DT and UW.

9x25Dillon Pull Down Documentations

Here are some I loaded and tested, some are 0.356" *& 0.357" diameter bullets.


The 6" barrel helps with getting the velocity from this cartridge and headspacing needs to be as close to flush as possible for longer case life and prevent cracks and splits around the necks.



Its a interesting cartridge and a BLAST to shoot!

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REM1875
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Posted: August 25 2018 at 9:44am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Thanks Shadow ........good stuff......
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: August 26 2018 at 5:38am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Shadow

Good information and some nice pictures. From your personl experience is the 9X25 with full power loadings easier to control in rapid fire than the 10mm?
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Posted: September 02 2018 at 7:38am | IP Logged Quote The_Shadow

Well they are about the same as I'm not using a compensated barrel for mine. Brass doesn't fly as far with the 9x25 as the impulse is different.

To take full advantage of this cartridge a 6" barrel works best when using slower powders.

BTW, I just added a few more pull-down documentations to that list yesterday... Kevin Underwood is loading some great stuff for the 9x25 Dillon as he and Mike McNett of Double Tap are about the only commercial loaders out there. It's not a huge market but there are enough guys to keep them loading for sales.



Edited by The_Shadow on September 02 2018 at 7:40am


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John Van Gelder
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Posted: September 03 2018 at 6:20am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Shadow

Thanks again, that just looks like it would make a useful hunting round.
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RT58
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Posted: September 03 2018 at 9:18am | IP Logged Quote RT58

It looks like it'd be more useful as a screwdriver.
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