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John Van Gelder
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Posted: September 04 2018 at 5:20am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

I have heard the fillips screw driver analogy used in conjunction with those bullets, while the light weight polymer bullets look more like a drill bit.
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Desert Eagle41
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Posted: September 06 2018 at 11:07am | IP Logged Quote Desert Eagle41

Hey John as I understand it the Philips type are for penetration and the screw type like Incepter that I worked on is based on a screw in hydraulic high velocity action. I still find the JHP are more excepted by folks as they have been around longer. I still like them also as there is a better history and more information in general to rely on.
Craig

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: September 06 2018 at 1:19pm | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Craig

As always new stuff takes some time for the "general population" to accept.

I think that the polymer bullets have some potential, with a bit of imagination folks should be able to make their own, putting them into roughly the same cost range as cast bullets. Probably not so with solid copper bullets.

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turbo1889
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Posted: September 06 2018 at 2:32pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

I can confirm that the "philips shaped"
bullets do have a significant advantage
when shooting through windshields. They
go through straighter with less deflection
then almost any other bullet I have tried
(some of which just deflect and don't even
go through). They are ideal for a person
who needs a self defense solution for
someone trying to intentionally run them
down with a motor vehicle, AKA = joggers,
walkers, pedalcyclist, moped riders, cops
doing a lot of traffic stops, cops who
still do foot or cycle patrol, etc . . .

I personally am such a person, and have
fired many different bullet types against
junk yard windshields and they are the
best option bet I have found for that
situation.

Edited by turbo1889 on September 06 2018 at 2:35pm


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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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Desert Eagle41
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Posted: September 06 2018 at 3:12pm | IP Logged Quote Desert Eagle41

Yeah John I would have thought that polymer would be cheaper than lead but not sure on that even. Of course the problem I ran into is that they were so light they wouldn't reliably work the action that and no reliable data made it a guessing game that I got tired of playing although I did end up with a load that worked in "most" guns I tried them in. Craig

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Wall Street reports today on brisk trading 380 brass finished higher for the last 14 straight months against the euro, dollar and yen.
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Desert Eagle41
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Posted: September 06 2018 at 3:28pm | IP Logged Quote Desert Eagle41

John the Philips bullets are Lehigh brand and I went to their site and they are very expensive. On a par with Incepter I think. I have thought in a real defensive setting I would like to load the gun with an assortment of bullets but not sure if this is a good idea as I have never heard of it being done. Nice idea I would think. Craig

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RT58
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Posted: September 06 2018 at 5:26pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

There have been a lot of gimmick, defensive bullets that have come and gone. Some were pretty much worthless while many did have some potential for limited situations. Some of them were designed for non-combat use but found their way into the combat market because of people that don't know the difference between different bullet/cartridge designs. Of course if you end up in a defensive situation you use what you have so it is good to know the strengths and weaknesses of what you have.

The problem in choosing a combat bullet is that not every situation is the same, or even close to the same, and you must decide if you want a bullet that is great for one certain situation and lousy for the rest or one that is good for a wide range of situations.
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turbo1889
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Posted: September 06 2018 at 6:39pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

You make a good point RT58

My main solution has been to often carry
one gun but with multiple spare magazines
with two different types of ammo.
"Penetration Loads" hard cast lead or
better, a load intended to deal with a
tough heavy critter like a bear or punch
through a windshield if necessary, etc . .
. And then "Soft Target Safety Loads" bare
minimum soft lead, but often hollow points
or fancy fragmenting rounds, etc. . .

Keep whatever is most appropriate in the
gun (usually the soft target loads) and
have the other mag in reserve.

Now, whether in an actual situation I
would have the "cool under pressure" to
swap mags if needed before a normal reload
is an open question but it's a plan at
least and since it's often the
"Penetration Loads" that are held in
reserve if the first mag only slowed down
the threat due to inadequate penetration
after the reload things should change.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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turbo1889
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Posted: September 06 2018 at 7:08pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

John Van Gelder wrote:
. . . with a bit
of imagination folks should be able to
make their own, putting them into roughly
the same cost range as cast bullets.
Probably not so with solid copper bullets.


If the trend over the last decade with CAD
home machining equipment continues for
another decade or so the solid copper
bullets are going to fall in there as
well. My woman already is already turning
her own brass solids on a home mini-CNC 8"
lathe. Its a slow process with only
simple turned solid profiles, no fancy
philips shaped tips but it works for her
needs since she got tired of paying $1-$3
a bullet for some of her big bores for
non-cast-lead bullets that she could load
to full velocity. She claims her setup
(cost a little over a grand) will pay for
itself over a few years in the price
difference between rod stock and solid
turned bullets where she used to buy them,
namely Lehigh and some place in South
Africa that you can snail mail and
internet order from that made sizes and
styles Lehigh didn't. She is also looking
into getting some tooling upgrades to it
so she can CNC turn an internal profile as
well as an external so she can make her
own brass for stuff she has that currently
she has to buy it customer made for her
from places like Rocky Mountain Cartridges
which of course means supposably spending
more money for tooling to save money in
the long run. I don't think she will save
any money but basically spend what she
would spend anyway but maybe get to shoot
a little more for the same money in the
long run. I am surprised though that it
doesn't seem to be as much of a time
killer as I thought it would be when she
first got it. With that CNC tech she just
sets it up with a fresh 8" or so length of
stock and hits the button on the computer
and then walks away and does other stuff
while it cuts out as many bullets from the
rod stock as it can in the length of stock
and when she gets back to it she just puts
in a fresh length of stock and hits the
button again. Way different then I
thought it was going to be but then I have
only used a non-CNC lathe and was always
manually squirting cutting fluid on the
work piece and this is clearly a different
animal and the new carbide tooling
apparently you can cut at least some
materials dry without worries. Been
wanting to try it out myself but so far
she hasn't let me actually play with it
myself only cut some bullets for me, but
she is the one who put the specs in the
computer program and loaded the stock and
pushed the button. It's her new baby and
I think it will be awhile longer before
she will let me play with it.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: September 07 2018 at 5:23am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

My favorite type of hand loading deals with long sticks with a bit of metal or stone on one end and feathers at the other. All things that I can produce from what I can find in my forest.

I have some of those projectiles that I have used over and over for a couple of decades. The whole idea of all of the non reusable bits that go into the use of fire arms offends my sense of economics.

However the issue of convenience, tips the scales in favor of firearms, it is very difficult to conceal a bow and arrows.

The balance lies in finding the most economical way to shoot, smaller lighter bullets and less powder.

Purchasing a lot of high tech equipment is not a viable answer for everyone, if the electricity goes off, I can still sit in front of my wood stove and cast bullets.

On picking the perfect combat bullet, that is as much guess work as anything.

When we had our SWAT training, the lads from LA had an entire presentation dealing with shooting at suspects through glass, there is always some deflection, with hand guns or rifles, and it is a function of the angle of incidence.

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RT58
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Posted: September 08 2018 at 1:05pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

John Van Gelder wrote:
On picking the perfect combat bullet, that is as much guess work as anything.


There is no perfect combat bullet and never will be as there are too many variables. But it's not that hard to come close, the science of terminal ballistics has been around for a long time and the lessons learned in the 1800's and early 1900's haven't changed. There's just too many experts that never learned them.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: September 09 2018 at 6:30am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

RT58

the lessons learned in the 1800's and early 1900's haven't changed.

Sounds like cast bullets to me..all I carry.
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turbo1889
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Posted: September 09 2018 at 12:52pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

For 90+% of applications cast lead either
soft or hard alloy is the ideal projectile
choice. Totally agree for most
applications lead of a correct bullet
profile and proper hardness for
application is often the best time prooven
choice which is often ignored/rejected by
the "experts" (most of whom in my opinion
should by force fed a particular book
titled "No Second Place Winner" written by
an old border patrol agent of yester-
century who had "been there and done that"
more then any of the modern experts who
have their block shaped heads up their own
where the sun don't shine.)

But for the nitch applications:

Such as shooting through windshields on
one end where solid 95/5 guilding metal
solid preferably with the philips style
tip is the best option I have found that
does better then any hard cast lead bullet
of any hardness or shape that I have
tried.

Or on the other end of the spectrum,
fragmenting bullets like the Extreme Shock
Air Marshal Round (no longer sold to
civilians I believe but for awhile if you
were in one of the free states you could
buy them and I stocked up back then) have
their place where even a dead soft pure
lead bullet would have too much collateral
damage risk due to over penetration or
richochay.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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RT58
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Posted: September 09 2018 at 2:52pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

John Van Gelder wrote:
RT58

the lessons learned in the 1800's and early 1900's haven't changed.

Sounds like cast bullets to me..all I carry.


Actually it includes jacketed bullets too.

Turbo, you might want to look into that Border Patrol agent a little further. He fits in with the other experts you mentioned.
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REM1875
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Posted: September 09 2018 at 6:37pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Penetration with the older 9 MM ammo and sloped targets
definitely was a problem in search of an answer.

Thanks for the info Turbo 1889
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: September 10 2018 at 6:12am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

RT58

Not aware of the availability of jacketed handgun bullets in the 1800s (19th Century).

The Europeans started dabbling with semi autos right around the turn of the century, and those were loaded with jacketed bullets.
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REM1875
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Posted: September 10 2018 at 6:51am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

1882 appears to be the general consensus in regards to FMJ
used by the Swiss ......everyone else followed soon after.
cupro-nickel most likely the first jacket material ....
Pistol bullets soon followed....
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: September 11 2018 at 6:17am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Jacketed rifle bullets went right along with the advent of smokeless powder. Then the use of jacketed bullets in hand guns came after and primarily for use in semi-autos, due to the deformation issues, with soft lead bullets, in the action.

The debate about what one should carry for defense purposes, expanding bullets or non expanding, The cons for non expanding as cited as over penetration, on the average of actual shooting situation something like 40% of the rounds fired do not hit the intended target.

Which renders the over penetration, hitting innocent bystanders argument somewhat moot.

If an armed conflict involves any kind of barriers, expanding bullets by their nature do not fare as well as full metal jackets.

Almost any hand gun round will penetrate a car windshield but expanding bullets tend to shed their jackets, or fragment. The new bonded core bullets perform better in that area.

Bullet technology has made some real progress in the last 20 years.

Back in my days as a policeman, my side arm was a S&W .357, for the first ten years on the job we carried Winchester Super X 158gr. plated SWC. Those old loads were hot. Then we went to 158 gr jacked soft points, I always carried some extra ammo in a pocket, the old standard 13.5 2400/170 gr. Keith load. Mostly for dispatching road hit moose. Those load would pretty much shoot all of the way through a car, hit on the side.

There was an old 60s something car in the dump that I tested those loads on, back when cars had bumpers, that load would penetrate a bumper.

Back at that same time one of our investigators/detectives was carrying a S&W 9mm, he had it loaded with some of the then new Super Vel, jacketed hollow points. He was involved in a shooting, in the winter time in Alaska, the subject was wearing heavy winter clothing, the old Super Vel ammunition did not perform well, out of a full magazine, only three or four of the bullets actually penetrated to the body of the subject.

The new bullets perform better, but in a similar situation may not.

In my current "reality" , I am confident that I will not have to shoot at people or cars. but dealings with bears and mt. lions are a regular occurrence, cast bullets are my first choice.   
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RT58
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Posted: September 11 2018 at 8:44am | IP Logged Quote RT58

Jacketed handgun bullets were made in the late 1800's for use in the new automatic pistols. From what I'd read they were also experimented with for revolvers but the cost didn't make them very popular.

During the Thompson-LaGarde tests of 1904 four of the nine bullets used were metal jacketed and one of those was a jacketed soft point.

I'm afraid I don't agree with the idea that bullet technology has grown so much in the last 20 years. The marketing hype has, but most of what they know now they knew long ago. They are in business to make profits and part of that is to keep their manufacturing costs as low as possible while trying to sell as high priced products as they can. And having gun writers on the payroll that tell the consumers they need the highest priced products doesn't hurt either.

Expanding bullets other than hollow points aren't all that bad with obstacles, as long as they can penetrate it, because it doesn't matter if they expand on the obstacle or the target behind it. Hollow points collapse inward on many obstacles and perform very poorly when hitting the intended target. Jacketed hollow points are way over rated, but are good for profits.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: September 12 2018 at 4:54am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

"Preaching to the choir" my first choice has always been cast bullets, I have a couple of hollow point molds, for the .357 and .44, those work well on varmints, but for big stuff, solids work the best.

Lots of talk about this and that load over penetrates, when the real problem is not enough penetration.

When some one buys a box of the high tech JHP ammo, the cash register rings to the tune of up to $50.00 for a box of 20, when 20 of my cast bullet hand loads costs me about $1.20.   
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